How to Begin Again with Michael Bolden
About This Episode
Here’s what we know: journalism in America is in upheaval. Free speech is under attack. Trust is being challenged, and reporters are under siege. And yet—walk onto a college campus today and you’ll find students running toward journalism, not away from it. Why?
That paradox is at the center of today’s conversation between Carrie Fox and returning guest Michael Bolden, the newly appointed Dean of the UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism. Michael has spent decades wrestling with the structural problems in media—first at the American Press Institute, and now inside one of the country’s most storied journalism schools. For him, the decision to move wasn’t about retreat. It was about running toward the hardest questions: How do we prepare journalists for a world where technology outpaces ethics? How do we rebuild trust in an age of fractured attention? How do we turn a profession under siege into one that still holds possibility?
In this wide-ranging dialogue, Carrie and Michael explore what it means to train truth-seekers in a time of disinformation, how to balance innovation with enduring values, and why collaboration across disciplines may hold the key to journalism’s renewal. Michael’s optimism is striking: he doesn’t see students discouraged by the obstacles; he sees them galvanized by them.
At a time when the story of journalism is often told as decline, this episode offers a counter-narrative—one rooted in resilience, curiosity, and the conviction that media’s future, though uncertain, is very much alive.
-
Carrie Fox: Hi, and thanks for joining us for this episode of the Mission Forward Podcast. So we are recording today's episode the day after Jimmy Kimmel's late night show was reinstated after an abrupt suspension of the show last week. We are recording this show at a time when media and journalism is being threatened and bullied and challenged in new and profound ways. And we are recording this when students in journalism programs all over the country are wondering what will the future mean for me.
Well, good news, we are also recording this episode today with the newly appointed Dean of the School of Journalism at the University of California, Berkeley, and what he might not be happy if I don't say, the number one public university in the world. If there was ever a time I wished I could sit down with a wise sage to make sense of what we're seeing, it's right now. So boy am I glad to have you here, Michael.
Now, before you say hello, many of our listeners will recognize your voice today because Michael Bolden has been on this show before through his prior role as the CEO for the American Press Institute. So while he's new and fresh in his role, we are thrilled to have a bit of time with him today where we'll have a chance to talk about why he made the decision to move and maybe a bit of what he's seeing in this environment too. So formally Michael Bolden, thanks for coming back on Mission Forward.
Michael Bolden: Well, Carrie, it's always a pleasure to be with you. The words that you put out into the world are very wise, and to join you in conversation for me always makes me think, as well as I hope makes your listeners think.
Carrie Fox: Thank you. I appreciate that. I said to you before this, I'm not going to throw you any tough questions, but they might be a little thought-provoking along the way because we don't often stop to really think about the deep whys behind some of the moves we make in life. But this was a big one, right? This was a big one. You literally uprooted moving from DC to San Francisco, actually to Berkeley, to go to the University of Berkeley. And I'm wondering why. I mean there was—it seems like this was a pretty strong call for you to make this move in this moment.
Michael Bolden: It was a difficult call, though. You know, we were doing excellent work at the American Press Institute, and I was deeply committed to that work, and I thought that we were having an impact in some areas that were very necessary. But one of the things that I've thought about and that people in the industry have thought about a lot in recent years is what are the structural changes that we are making in journalism that can help it have a better future. It's no surprise to hear about the collapse of business models, the decline of trust. We've all heard those narratives and we've all been struggling with how do we change those narratives? What do we do to address them?
So addressing some of the frameworks that underpin journalism itself is something that I've thought long and hard about. And what is more fundamental than looking at journalism education and journalism training and how we're doing it? And so as I faced the dilemma and I thought about Berkeley and Berkeley's place in the educational universe, the reputation of the School of Journalism at Berkeley, but also the opportunity to work with young people who will build the future of journalism. That made the decision a little bit easier. And it also really gave me a sense of what I was running toward. I was not running away from anything. But it was clear there was an opportunity to shape the future in a unique way with some fundamentals that were already in place. And that's really when I accepted that, that's really when I began to shift my thinking to see this as the opportunity that it was.
Carrie Fox: So no fear in going toward higher education and deeper into journalism. Two sectors just—
Michael Bolden: Well, so my very good friend Emilio Garcia-Ruiz, who is editor-in-chief of the San Francisco Chronicle, once told me he was like, "I could tell you something's hard, but that will just make you run toward it. That won't make you run away from it."
Carrie Fox: Well, that's why we need people like you though, Michael. I mean that is literally why we need people like you. So thank you for running toward it.
Michael Bolden: You know, that didn't really put me off the thought that journalism is hard and I think really it's cliche, but anything that's worth doing is not always easy. But one of the things that I've seen time and again is that sometimes people are afraid to do the hard things. And so we need as a society people who are willing to take on the difficult work. I don't want to sort of oversell myself in this, but the thought that I was doing something that was needed in a place where I was needed at a time when I was needed, when there's so many other things that are pressuring higher education and pressuring journalism, those were all attractive things to me, actually.
Carrie Fox: So one of my mentors said to me early on that when someone leaves, it creates major opportunities for those who stay. And I remember being on a call with you when you were talking through that decision to leave and you had some very, very wise words to share about the opportunity you would present for those who stayed. And I just want to recognize that too. That I think is something that sometimes folks don't understand the importance of reinforcing how much you trusted those who were staying behind. And that importance of instilling that belief and that "you've got this, you can do this, you can keep that organization running while I move to another one." I just think you, from what I saw, my perception is you did that very well.
Michael Bolden: Thank you. Yeah, I mean so one of the things that I think people often wrestle with, especially when you've been leading through a period of change, is how much is the change linked to me and how much has the change been embedded through the work of my colleagues and people who have been helping to execute the vision? And I always emphasized at the American Press Institute that the work we were doing was not about me. I was helping to set the vision, but it was really about what the team was executing. And I could look around me as I wrestled with this decision and see that people—they knew the work and they were finding joy in the work. And they felt inspired by some of the things that I had laid out. But at the end of the day, it wasn't about me. It was about their belief in the work and what they were doing and what they were sharing.
And at a certain point I was sitting, I think it was actually at a board meeting. And I was sitting at a board meeting and I was listening to Sam Ragland, my VP of journalism programs, talk about our work with creators and some of the other work that she had led. And I thought she's really soaring and she needs to do that as much as she can. And in that moment it was clear to me that while she valued my counsel and she valued working with me, she didn't need me. And as a matter of fact, she might discover new things about herself if I wasn't there.
Carrie Fox: Well, you and I equally adore Sam Ragland. So Sam Ragland, if you're listening to this, we love you. So let's talk about then your shift. So you are at kind of the top of your game, running an organization, having the trust of your board and your leadership team. And then you look out and you say, "Okay, now it's time for me to start something new." And that could feel a little bit unsettling or there's a lot of uncertainty in that. How did you prepare to introduce yourself and open that door to that new world that you were going to create there in Berkeley?
Michael Bolden: That was difficult because I was actually very settled. I had not anticipated leaving. I had actually moved to suburban DC with the intent that I would probably spend the rest of my life there. I had lived in a neighborhood I loved. I was working with people who were really executing and who I deeply valued under conditions that I thought would allow me to do great work. But one of the things that I've always valued and I've always really had as my North Star is what is the opportunity that I have to learn and to grow? And frankly, you know, I'd been at API for three and a half years. I don't know that I was learning or growing anymore. I mean, I still had the passion for the work. But I've always been very thirsty to learn new things and to explore new things and to frankly do hard things.
And when it became clear to me that Berkeley was actually seriously considering me as a candidate to be dean and a professor here, I really started to think about that and what that would mean being in a place like this at this time. Because initially when they had reached out to me, I actually did not see the possibility and I dismissed it because I wasn't taking it seriously. But it became clear that it was a new direction for me at a time when I'm just really prepared to grow and to be open to learning and open to finding out what can stretch me in a way that I haven't been stretched before.
Carrie Fox: I really love that. And it feels like, you know, I sit on the board of a university. There is nothing like stepping onto that campus. There is just nothing like it—the energy and the possibility and the opportunity. You literally see it in everyone and in everything around you. And so I would imagine it's a place that feels hopeful amid a lot of other challenges around you. Is that accurate?
Michael Bolden: That is absolutely accurate. I mean, and one of the things that I have been saying since I got here is that the story that we're telling about journalism, we know about the business model problems, we know about the trust problem, we know about all of the declines that have happened in media. But even with all of that, what's happening in journalism and what's happening on college campuses, it's really about opportunity. Right. It is about the need that we have for community, the need that we have for actually more journalism and more journalists than we've ever had before. And so the question becomes, how do we make that happen and how do we embrace that?
That is an environment that we're working in that really is part of a larger vision here at Berkeley. I mean, so the Chancellor really does have a vision that Berkeley can be at the center of creating human wellness and creating opportunity for people no matter what their circumstance and where they come from. And so if we look at journalism in that context and how journalists can be just not a broadcaster of news and information, but a community convener and facilitator and a connector, there most certainly is a place for journalists and journalism at the center of that vision. So to come here at this place and to help students see that and to help them build that in their own lives and to help our faculty and our staff also work toward that for me is just the merging of I think the conditions that we need to truly see the growth of human potential. And all of those factors are here at Berkeley right now.
Carrie Fox: So tell me a story if you can. I don't know if there's someone you've met or something that you've seen or just maybe there's something happening within the way Berkeley is approaching journalism curriculum that reinforces that because that's a fascinating idea of thinking about how this university is approaching its role in the world.
Michael Bolden: One of the things that's happening is not about the School of Journalism, but it is about the university writ large, and it's about the process that all of the administration—all of us who are on the Council of Deans, who are on the Provost Council, who are engaged with thinking about how we lead through this time and how we're thinking about how we can support each other and create a climate that isn't beholden to the past, but that respects the values that we have, that respects the traditions that we've had while also looking at how we can capitalize on things that are of this moment. Whether it's technology and, you know, we all have been talking about the meaning of artificial intelligence and where that's going to lead us. Whether it's talking about being in a place like California, which is so diverse and where there's so much promise and we have so many people from so many different communities coming to the university.
All of those things are part of the story. And it isn't just the one thing. It's all of these things coming together at this time with all the difficulties that we see around us, because the difficulties reinforce the need that we have to work together and to come together to create solutions for some of our greatest problems. And so whether we're talking about the Haas School of Business or we're talking about the Goldman School of Public Policy, Engineering, Chemistry, we all have a role to play, I think, in the future of Berkeley and the future of our society, and we're all trying to find our piece of it and we're having conversations about that.
Carrie Fox: So let's talk about the conversations happening in the journalism school and with those students and how they are making sense, what kind of questions they're asking or—you know, I know you're not necessarily in the classroom yet, but what kind of conversations are happening related to threats on free speech and student journalism? Give us a little bit of color there, what you're seeing.
Michael Bolden: Yeah, so I have to say actually the students are amazing because they are not sad or downtrodden. They are running towards civic service and they realize the importance of it at this time. They have a thirst for truth and a thirst for justice. They think that journalism is the way to make that happen. They are very curious about what the future looks like for them. And the message that we have is that it's one of resilience and it's one of being open to many things.
You know, we know that legacy media, of course, has had its issues and the business models have collapsed and changed, but we also see that there are so many different opportunities emerging. Right, whether we're talking about the growth in the creator economy, whether we're talking about the lowered barriers to being able to distribute news and information. If we're talking about the fact that more people have a voice now, voices that have been traditionally shut out. And so students see that and they're talking about that and they're wondering how to harness the possibility, even as we see, you know, what's happening with attacks on media, with attacks on journalists and journalists even being killed, they understand that freedom of the press is fundamental not just to democracy but to being who we are as people, right? To functioning as a society.
And so we talk a lot about that and we have conversations about what that means and we'll see where that goes. But when I talk to students I'm very optimistic about the future because even though yes they're worried about jobs and they're worried about "am I on the right track? Am I studying the right thing?" their commitment to journalism is not wavering.
Carrie Fox: You know, I think a lot about the responsibility of journalists to tell the whole story, to dig into that story, to tell it from different perspectives and to use the technology available to us responsibly, right? And so we have these new emerging technologies, some established technologies that I have to imagine it is such an interesting time to be in a classroom and struggling through what are a measure of both technology challenges, but also ethical challenges on how we think about coming into a field like journalism that is rapidly changing before our eyes.
Michael Bolden: That's absolutely true. And so wrestling with those conversations, it's like, I mean, so if you're a journalist, what role does AI, for example, play in what you're doing? Does it play a role in your creating your questions? How do you interact with AI in terms of actually creating journalism? Is that verboten? There's some here who say, absolutely, that's verboten. So just engaging those conversations though is a process of growth because we have to understand what's happening around us and have conversations about it so that we can even articulate I think a framework for moving forward in an effective way.
Carrie Fox: Do you feel like—I've been having a lot of conversations with organizations who are going through strategic planning. And while a little bit different than curriculum development, there's an interesting link here of people who are saying to me, "Well, everything around us is changing so much, how can we even think about a strategic plan?" And I wonder if it feels that way in curriculum too. I mean, you're just getting into it, but it almost feels like, particularly for a four year university, that what you are teaching now may not even exist a year from now, you know, be so different a year from now. How do you all think about that, delivering that kind of teaching that can extend beyond the technology of the moment, let's say?
Michael Bolden: Well, so two things. So we actually as a university are in the middle of beginning a strategic planning process. So add us to your list. The journalism school itself is also at the beginning of a new process. But curriculum development is actually too specific a way to think about it. What we have to do is back out or fly up to the 50,000 foot level. Because what we're talking about again is community and human development at a larger level. And so curriculum development and how you deliver lessons or the pedagogy, that's actually a tactic. And tactics can change over time.
But, you know, thinking about resilience, thinking about how we remove friction so that we can be nimble and agile in how we think and how we move forward, that's really sort of underlying where we are. And then curriculum becomes something that you layer over that when you think about the larger examples of where you're trying to move. And so you know the tactics will change constantly, but the fundamentals of where you're trying to go will not change. Berkeley's values have not changed. Our commitment to freedom of speech, our commitment to a community where we uplift each other, that has not changed, and that's gonna be present in whatever we're doing, no matter what the actual lesson plan is or how we're actually choosing to deliver the curriculum.
Carrie Fox: And to those listening, that is what I call a classic Michael Bolden answer, where you can now go back and listen to that again because you always have such a good way, Michael, of answering things in a way that extends far beyond higher education or journalism, right? Everything you just said I think can resonate with anyone who is just listening. How we think bigger about the problems we're solving or the content we're creating—it's not about the tactics. It's about creating that much deeper experience or impact that will stay with someone long after they're at Berkeley.
Michael Bolden: The other thing that is vital to that, when you think in that way then you can see across barriers, across disciplines, across sectors, and find new ways of working together with fields or people who might be totally different from where you are. And I think that that's also a way to get to more effective solutions. That spirit of collaboration that encourages you to sort of remove the barriers is something that we need to nurture, no matter, you know, what we do or what industry we're in.
Carrie Fox: Looking at the data, you know, there is a really interesting—I don't know if it's a curve or a cliff or whatever it is, but of the number of students who are choosing four-year universities, who are choosing US versus outside of the US universities. You're still relatively new to making your pitch, but I'd love to hear from you a bit on why you believe a four-year university, and I think you've just started to do it, but why in this moment, four-year university is actually still a very important destination and option for young people.
Michael Bolden: I think that the spirit of intellectual curiosity and the spirit of discovery that is nurtured in four-year universities, the value of that is immeasurable. Right. I mean, I think that we need to be encouraging lifelong learning as much as we can. And the thought that you might even get a good basis in something in a year or two is, you know, just not the way the world works. You need to be thinking about this throughout your life. And that's not to undersell the value of shorter terms in colleges. For example, the community college system in California is a vital part of who we are and helps feed our four-year universities. But at the same time, you're trying to—it's like laying bricks, right? You're laying foundations. And four-year universities are just part of that foundation that I hope makes humanity stronger because you can come here and you can discover things that you never thought possible and build relationships that will last an entire lifetime.
You know, and the majority of our programs are actually here at the School of Journalism—we have a two-year master's program. So by that time you're six years in. But I think that the depth of learning and the specialties that you develop can only enhance the role that you play larger in journalism or in the world itself because the specialties that you develop and the expertise that you develop allow you to really be leaders that society needs. And here at Berkeley, we're not just training people who are going to be good members of the workforce and good members of our society, but we are training people who are going to be news leaders and engineering leaders and business leaders. And so immersing them in that environment and helping them to find their way is part of what's happening at this four-year university.
Carrie Fox: I talked to Lisa Snowden recently. I don't know if you know her name, but she's the editor-in-chief of Baltimore Beat and I asked her how she feels about this idea of people saying media is dead and she said media is not dead. She said old media is dead. She said media is very much alive. And that's an important piece to remember that we will always need and we will always have media.
Michael Bolden: Yes, and I am a huge fan of Lisa Snowden's. Baltimore Beat is actually one of my favorite things. And I think when you talk about community and the role that journalists need to play, Lisa and Baltimore Beat have really demonstrated that in a way that more people could learn from. And this goes back to actually what we're talking about earlier. Yes, media will change. Tools we use will evolve, but people will always need news and information and media. And so what's the role of journalists in that space? We can't think that journalists will never change. Some of the underlying ethics and the commitment to truth and the commitment to the freedom of the press will never change. But at the same time, how we do the job can and should change in keeping with some of the tools that develop and the technology that develops. But we should always be serving people.
Carrie Fox: So Baltimore Beat is one of those publications I love to read because it gives me a serious beat on what's happening in Baltimore. But when we think about those who are listening who want to be well-informed members of the public, what are some of the types of media you often suggest, whether that's to students you come across or individuals you're speaking to, to be a well-informed consumer, news consumer, where do you suggest people go?
Michael Bolden: I think people should just be as open as they possibly can to many different types of media. I read legacy publications. I read magazines, I watch broadcasts, I really do try to get as much information as I can from trusted sources of news and information. Some of those are going to be legacy organizations, but at the same time people really should be paying attention to local news, right? So we were talking about Baltimore Beat. And Baltimore Beat, if you're in Baltimore, is a great source of information. So what is the reliable, trustworthy source of information in your community?
Here in the Bay Area, we have a plethora of them, everything from the San Francisco Chronicle, which of course has been around for 160 years, to newer organizations like Mission Local, Berkeleyside, KALW. But it really should be a mix of public and commercial media and all different platforms because I think that having a diet that's as varied as possible really allows you to be informed in a broader way. Now the question becomes, what is your point of entry? Right now I will admit I'm a Gen Xer, but my point of entry to a lot of these different sources remains Instagram actually. So whether I'm reading the Washington Post or whether I'm listening to something on NPR, Instagram is actually the funnel that I actually use sometimes to get to those. So I encourage people to use whatever funnel works for them, but as they go through that funnel to find their way to many different sources where they can sort of compare notes and learn the truth from a variety of trusted journalists.
Carrie Fox: And that vision of a funnel is a really important one because starting wide at the top is really important. Thinking about the kind of information you're taking in and the spectrum of information you're taking in is important.
Michael Bolden: Well that's absolutely right, because you know, you can go down to the most granular level if there is a particular thing that interests you. I mean I might start really broadly and then end up reading something like Bon Appétit magazine or The Atlantic magazine or something to really dig deep into an issue. But people should be, let's just say, be thoughtful consumers of media, right? Don't just be receptive to it. You should engage with it and know actually where the information is coming from, what you're seeing, what you're hearing, what you're reading, and understand it in a way that helps grow your world. I think passive reception of information is just—it's a missed opportunity because going back to what I said earlier, being intellectually curious and learning about the world around you is something that's just invaluable and asking questions is part of it, but asking informed questions is the key.
Carrie Fox: Michael, we're doing something a little different this season where we're going to close out with just a couple questions about you, your preferences and specifically around hellos and goodbyes. So first one, do you prefer to say hello with a hug or a handshake?
Michael Bolden: Oh, it depends on the people. But I would in general—a handshake.
Carrie Fox: Okay, great. What's your favorite language or way to say hello? What is the one thing you never leave home without?
Michael Bolden: Yeah, because I can't even say—I don't even take my car keys anymore because I have a key card that's in my wallet, but so it's my cell phone.
Carrie Fox: Okay. And in this big game of life, Michael, what is one thing you hope to leave behind?
Michael Bolden: Oh. I want people to say that I mattered, that my life mattered, that their interactions with me mattered. And it's not about any material things or anything like that, but whether it's family or friends or colleagues, I want people to still feel my presence after I'm gone.
Carrie Fox: Well, thank you. Michael, you have mattered to me in big ways, probably bigger ways than you'll ever know, and I'll keep telling you that, but you have been a great inspiration to me and partner to me for many years. Thanks for taking time to do this today.
Michael Bolden: Well, Carrie, you are one of my favorite people, and I think you're one of the wisest people that I know. So I am always privileged to spend time with you and to learn from you.
Carrie Fox: I appreciate you. All right, Michael. Thank you. We'll see you soon.
Michael Bolden: Thanks, Carrie.
Carrie Fox: And that brings us to the end of this episode of Mission Forward. If you like what you heard today, or if it sparked something for you, then hit share in your podcast feed and send it along. And while you're there, leave us a rating or a review so we can keep getting this show in front of more people like you who can benefit from it. Wherever you are, wherever you've been, and wherever you are going, keep moving your mission forward. And I'll see you here next time on the Mission Forward Podcast.
