From Conflict to Convergence with Mariah Levison and Robert J. Fersh
About This Episode
Two daughters. One orange. Conflict. Their mother, seeking peace, cuts it in half — a classic compromise. What mom doesn’t know? One wants the juice, the other the zest. Yet there they are: nobody gets what they need.
It’s a parable that is often told in conflict resolution circles. But in the hands of Mariah Levison — CEO and President of the Convergence Center for Policy Resolution — it is an elegant metaphor for the missed opportunities that happen when we rush toward solutions without first understanding our problems.
This week, Carrie sits down with Mariah alongside Convergence’s founder and Senior Advisor, Robert J. Fersh. They are collaborators in mission and architects of a process that helps unlikely allies find common ground. Together, they’ve worked across some of the most polarized issues of our time: education, healthcare, criminal justice, and beyond.
Their approach isn’t about compromise. It’s about something more ambitious and, paradoxically, more human. It’s about convergence: the point where stories intersect, values overlap, and relationships begin to matter more than ideology.
They unpack how durable policy solutions emerge not from debate, but from curiosity. How listening — real, intentional, difficult listening — can transform even the most entrenched opponents into collaborators. And how the secret to solving today’s toughest challenges asks all of us to move away from righteousness, and toward relationship. After all, what divides us often pales in comparison to what we all want — fairness, belonging, safety, and dignity.
If you’ve ever wondered what it would take to really change the tone of a divided room—or a divided nation—we want this episode to leave you with more than hope. It will leave you with a blueprint.
Links & Notes
Learn more about Convergence Center for Policy Resolution
Explore the book: From Conflict to Convergence by Rob Fersh and Mariah Levison
Read Mariah’s column on 10 Shared Beliefs Most Americans Hold
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Speaker 1:
The only thing that's going to matter-
Speaker 2:
Look at what you're doing right now.
Speaker 3:
The more we divide and silo ourselves, it's at our peril.
Speaker 4:
Did we miss something?
Carrie Fox:
Hi, friend, and welcome to the Mission Forward podcast. I'm Carrie Fox, your host and CEO of Mission Partners, a social impact communications firm and certified B Corporation. If you are new to listening, I am really glad you're here today. On this season 10 of the podcast, we are talking with inspiring leaders across media, philanthropy, business and society, social change thinkers who are shaping big ideas, social change leaders who are living through their values and social changemakers who are navigating the way forward and advancing progress in divided times. In today's show, we are moving from that feeling of conflict to convergence. First, a quick story.
Last year, my friend, Art Taylor, who has been a guest on this show, invited me to be his guest at an event here in Washington, DC called the Convergence Annual Summit. I went not having any idea what I was getting myself into, but I know enough that when Art Taylor calls and says, "It will be worth it," I trust him. And I'm glad I did, because over the course of that half-day experience, I met so many special people and I saw something happening in that space of people across government, community, nonprofit and philanthropy, people who had deep passions for issues and not always the same position on those issues. But in this space, I saw how the organizers of the event were bringing people together across differences to find common ground and a shared focus on which they could act.
We learned that day about how smarter early education policies were being developed in partnership with parents, caregivers, business owners and government leaders and we learned how progress can be made even in pockets where it feels unlikely. This is the work of Convergence, a fascinating nonprofit founded by conflict resolution expert Rob Fersh and led by a brilliant facilitator, CEO, Mariah Levison. And I'm excited to have them both with me on the show today to talk about their work and their approach as well as some key lessons from their book, From Conflict to Convergence. Rob and Mariah, welcome to Mission Forward.
Rob Fersh:
Thank you. It's very nice to be here.
Mariah Levison:
Thanks so much for having us, Carrie, and for that very generous introduction.
Carrie Fox:
Absolutely. So you two have interesting convergence of your own. I have found it so interesting learning about your individual career paths and then this moment that you came together and how you have now built this special organization together. I just want to hear a bit from each of you about those paths and what brought you together.
Rob Fersh:
Yes. We're quite different in that Mariah, being a lot more precocious than I am, learned how to do this and wanted to do this at a much earlier age than I did. I really didn't turn to this until my late 40s and I already had half of my career involved in advocacy at the national level on big issues mainly relating to hunger and poverty in the United States. But for me, a bell went off that there was a capacity missing in Washington. As I continued to meet people with great decency who didn't see the world the way I did, who had no place to sit down and actually hear each other, normally we're just invited to seminars to debate each other and then people would summarize what the differences were.
But as it turns out, many of us had a lot of the same values and the same goals that we wanted to reach in terms of helping make the country better, but we just disagreed on the means to do so. So I really couldn't live with what I thought I felt to be the cognitive dissonance of meeting people of great decency and then feeling like all I was doing was debating them and fighting with them, and instead, I threw myself into the conflict resolution field. I'm a natural mediator at heart. I've been accused of actually mediating school ground, elementary school playground fights. I've been told I used to mediate those when I was a kid, so I'm drawn to that personality-wise. But after wandering for a long time in the advocacy business and working for three congressional committees, I really found my calling to try to bring people together, as you described, to work for common purpose.
And so after about a decade of incubating it in 2009, I and others launched Conversion Center for Policy Resolution with the goals that you've already spelled out.
Mariah Levison:
Yeah, well, I think my journey in the field did start pretty early, as Rob indicated. Ever since I was young, I just, for whatever reasons, had this sense that it was easier for me to see than maybe some people that other people's difficult actions, even harmful or hurtful actions, were usually driven by unskillful or ineffective attempt to meet some basic human needs that we all share for safety and security and belonging and significance. And that just really gave me the sense very early that there were better ways to resolve our conflicts, that if we could focus on understanding what these unmet needs were rather than getting an adversarial stances about the things that people were doing, that there was just a lot of opportunity for resolving conflicts in better ways.
And there's a story that's told a lot in the conflict resolution field I think that illustrates that. There's a story that a mom had two daughters who were fighting over an orange and they were yelling and screaming in the kitchen and she walked in, grabbed the knife and chopped the orange in half and said, "There, now you should be happy. It's a compromise." And of course, they weren't and they were both still unhappy. And through discussion, it turned out that one sister wanted to grate the rind to the zest for some baking recipe and the other one wanted the juice, and by compromising too quickly, neither of them got what they really needed and what could have been a better outcome.
And while that story is obviously an oversimplified fable, it is very much what I have found to be true working on a wide variety of public issues at the local, state and national level and that reality has turned me into the rare person who is happier the more divided a room is because the more potential I see there for that kind of transformation and coming up with those more satisfactory solutions that meet more needs of more people who are wrestling with a problem.
Carrie Fox:
That's fabulous. I love the distinctions between your two stories. I also appreciate Mariah. As the mom of two daughters, I will think twice before taking the orange out of their hand next time. That's fantastic. So I want to hang on this word convergence because I think it's such an interesting ... As someone who loves language and thinks about what's behind the words we use, your book isn't called From Conflict to Resolution or Conflict to Agreement, it's called Conflict to Convergence. Why is convergence such a key outcome?
Rob Fersh:
I'm not sure we've ever thought about it so much, but it does imply a coming together. And frankly, I was involved in the process of naming the organization and we had a lot of candidates, but it seemed to me that was a word that captured us best. It wasn't really only about getting agreement. And so much of our process is to have people come together and to learn from each other and develop appreciation for each other. And even if they don't reach full agreement, there's huge dividends of people knowing each other, understanding each other, lowers the temperature of their conflicts. And in many cases, even if they don't come to complete agreement, they're in a position to work together differently over time because they know each other, and in many cases, end up really liking each other and they have trouble living with being angry with all the time, people who are really decent folks who just see the world differently.
So I think convergence, now that you've raised the question, seems to be a little broader term and a little more connected to the overall gestalt of what we do, which is to bring people together to work for common purpose. And fortunately, for the most part, we've been successful in virtually every project that we've undertaken.
Carrie Fox:
Have you found that people think there's more space between them than there really is as you get into these rooms and figure out what's actually happening or is the space pretty real and pretty big?
Mariah Levison:
No, I think it's amazing how much farther apart people think they are than they really are. There are differences, but there's some fascinating research out there called the perception gap that talks about how liberals think conservatives are way more extreme on certain issues and conservatives of liberals and that just isn't the case that there's much more nuance. And our work really backs up that research, that people come into rooms thinking they have nothing in common, they can't trust each other, that they can't work together. And really relatively quickly compared to what I think most people would think, given our public narrative about how divided we are, people recognize that they have shared goals and shared values.
Very few people are against good schools, a strong economy. Very few people don't share the values of fairness, of compassion. And when folks reestablish that they have these shared goals and these shared values, then they have the foundation to work through where they do have real differences, which are often about how you achieve those things. But those kinds of differences are the productive kind of conflict, the kind that can push our thinking to a higher level because there are a lot of different ways to achieve these shared goals. And when we do the hard work of understanding why people have these different ideas about how to do this, then we have the possibility to come up with solutions that are wiser and more durable than any one side could have come up with on their own.
Rob Fersh:
From the very beginning, Convergence always try to get the widest possible range of disagreement to the table, because the wider the disagreement to begin with, the more durable the solution if you can get agreement. So it's not just about the mushy middle or just centrist. So we've always tried to do that on all the issues we worked on and we've had many people come to tables who really thought they couldn't even talk to the other person, no less ever work with them. But I do want to say in these heightened polarized times that this process doesn't always work at all issues and for all people and there are some people who are sufficiently ideological or maybe overconfident that they have the truth that you can't always work with them.
But our experience has been that even though people think they're sitting down with their sworn enemies, whether you're a teacher's union, you're sitting down with someone who hates teachers' unions and thinks they cause all the education problems or whether you're someone who's a critic of the prison system and especially private prisons and they have someone who works for private prisons, they eventually in our tables find ways they can work together even if they continue to disagree about some things. I don't want to be Pollyannaish. We live in very spirited times now where I think a lot of people are scratching their heads about who could they really talk to, but we think that universe is much broader than what people think and there may be times when certain leadership styles are in play that it makes a little more difficult.
But overall, our story is what Mariah said, that most people are shocked and somewhat surprised at how much they agree underneath it all. And that's really a great relief to them not to have to be so at odds with other people.
Carrie Fox:
Yeah. I appreciate you say, that it doesn't always work, but I also imagine not having seen the two of you work in person that a lot of what you do and a lot of the outcome depends on what goes into it, how you prepare, how you set the stage and set the room. And you talk a lot in your book about collaborative problem solving, right? Of course, problems are always solved more effectively when they're solved with different points of view and perspectives. Those people with different points and perspectives must all be willing to bring their ideas to the table, to trust that they'll be heard, to be respected. So I'd love to hear a little bit from one or both of you about what kinds of grounding components do you bring to this work to set the stage, to set the work that lets people across divides be willing enough to come together?
Mariah Levison:
Yeah, that's a great insight, Carrie, and that's really true, and when I moved from doing interpersonal mediation-type work to working on bigger public issues, I was also surprised about just how much all of these process-y steps really set a foundation for the part that looks more exciting, where people are building trust and coming up with solutions. And at Convergence, we do very extensive processes that probably most folks aren't going to be replicating. You can replicate them at some scale within organizations or on public issues, but we tried in the book to really break it down into components that would be useful to folks.
So we talk about the mindset that's helpful for problem solving, which can be used in any setting and then we call it the building blocks, the key actions that can be taken. And then we also cover the extensive process that we use, but we do things like interviewing people before bringing them together and it sounds like such a simple thing, but it's really a remarkably effective tool to build people's trust that we're really listening to them and that we're going to design a process based on their input. And we come up with a very thoughtful plan or design for how we bring people together.
A piece of that design always is at the beginning that we go slowly. We focus on building relationships, identifying those shared goals upfront before we dive into problem solving. Many other processes where people come together, I think taskforces or committees, people sit down and they go right at the problem pretty quickly and then find themselves stuck at the place that led them to come together in some taskforce or committee. And we really slow down and give folks the opportunity to learn about each other and to learn about each other's perspective in a different way that involves a lot of sharing, sometimes some vulnerability that really sets up that foundation for when we get to the piece about making decisions together and how people want to move forward.
Rob Fersh:
Even once we get in the room, as Mariah just pointed out, we don't go right into, "Let's debate how to cover the people for healthcare," or, "how to fix the prison system." We have a discussion about values and what people's motivations and life histories have been so they get to know each other. One story I like to tell, I don't always remember too is, well, the first voyage I have was on healthcare coverage for the uninsured, which led to a series of national piece of legislation starting with covering children. And I remember there was a lot of tension in the room because a lot of these people had been involved in the Clinton Wealth Healthcare Reform proposal in the late '90s and it was a bitter debate and national advertising and people attacking each other.
And we assembled this table and we invited a gentleman from the Heritage Foundation and many people who were in mainstream healthcare organizations and also on the left had a lot of trepidation inviting the Heritage Foundation into the room, but of course, they didn't know Stuart Butler and what a gem and reasonable person he was. But as we went around the room initially, the initial take was, again, to get people out, "Well, who are you? Why do you care about this issue? Why are you motivated to work on covering the uninsured?" At that point, there were 50 million Americans who didn't have healthcare coverage.
And we got about two-thirds around the room, and finally Stuart from Heritage, who everyone was worried about, said, "I believe it's a tragedy we don't have universal healthcare coverage in this country." And people in the room were surprised that Heritage Foundation saying that. And then he went on to say, "I tend to favor market-based approaches. Some of you prefer the single payer like Canada or England, but I'm a Brit and I believe," he's from England originally, "I believe that everyone should have healthcare coverage and let's have that conversation about how to get it to people."
And that moment alone, I felt the room shifted from people feeling like, "Oh my God, how am I going to even talk to these other people too?" "Hey, you know what? At least on a fundamental goal, we're in alignment."
Carrie Fox:
There's a line in your book that reinforces that and it's about, it's not either/or. It's about how do you bring two ideas together and so there's a line in your book that says, "It's not about guns or safety. It's about guns and safety and that there can be a space where you can meet in the middle on that." I want to go back to mindset for a minute and I'm glad you started there, Mariah, because I took on that in your book too, how important mindset is. And what I heard and what you were sharing a moment ago is that it really does matter to listen intently first, understand where someone's coming from and then be the bridge to bring those ideas together versus, if you're an employer and you realize that two departments are not working well together, not just to bring them in a room and say, "Well, tell me what's going on," right? You got to do your research, you got to do your listening, you've got to understand.
And then, Rob, as you were saying, "Then that's really where a lot of the big ahas start to flow once you've had a minute to build some trust with each of the respective parties." But I want you to tell me a little more about mindset, right? If mindset matters so much to bridge divides, tell me more about the mindset that is needed for change to occur.
Mariah Levison:
Sure. So in the book, we outlined what we call a collaborative problem solving mindset. And before I cover what that is, I'll say it is not that most people come into problem-solving processes with the mindset, but the right kind approach of bringing folks together can really help people develop that mindset. But for leaders who are interested in developing that approach, we do try to lay it out, and in essence, we start with saying, "Starting from a place that conflict can be constructive." Most of us give lip service. Others just don't feel like it because that's not usually our experience. But it goes back to the piece that I shared a second ago that, for the most part, we share high level goals and values.
And when we remember that it's more our disagreements about how we achieve them and that we do have these shared goals and values, then that creates the opportunity for conflict to be more constructive and for us to get some of the good pieces out of it. We also recommend giving each other the benefit of the doubt. Not that there's none, but very few people get up in the morning thinking, "How can I make the world a worst place today?" People are doing what they believe is right. Whether it is or isn't, whether it's effective or causing harm, that's a different question, but generally, people have a story about why they're doing that makes as much sense to them as ours does to us.
So starting from that place of, "What is their story and how does it make sense to them?" And a way to do that is another mindset, is curiosity is the cure. Curiosity is a big piece of it, to get curious about, "What is that story? How does it make sense?" And that's not just because it's a kind and good thing to do, which I think it is, but also because it's an effective thing to do. Because understanding how someone comes by their views and why what they're doing makes sense to them, it's going to give others really important information to figure out, "What are those basic needs or what are those concerns that are driving this behavior that we need to address?"
And all of that lays a foundation for the next piece, which is putting relationships at the center. And I don't think I can overstate, especially at this moment in our country, how important it is to put people before politics, to start by getting to know each other, to build a relationship. It is rare that we can't find things that we respect and care about in each other. All those other pieces giving each other the benefit of the doubt, that curiosity to help us establish that relationship, even when that feels challenging across our differences. And all of that then can ladder up to the thinking about higher ground solutions.
So rather than going to that place of compromise, which I think is a deterrent, especially these days, folks are very concerned about compromising principles, and for the most part, people should be. We don't want to compromise our principles, things about freedom and liberty and kindness and these big picture principles. And there is a way to come together where we dig deeper, we understand each other's needs, we understand each other's concerns and we can come up with these solutions that really do the hard work of excavating all that stuff that's underneath our adversarial demands and integrating them into solutions that can meet more needs of more people and problems.
So all of those pieces of a mindset, if a leader can bring those into a difficult situation, they can really lay that foundation to help people come together and come up with better solutions.
Carrie Fox:
We've only got time for two more questions somehow. So, Rob, I've got one for you and then I'm going to turn back and ask both of you perhaps the last one. We are talking a lot this season about truth and we have Mitch Albom on the show this season to talk about his new book called The Little Liar, which interrogates truth and what we do with the truth we know. And, Rob, in the book you talk about your aha with truth, I'll call it, that you used to believe your job was to get people to believe your side and then you realized that maybe more progress could be made if you took stock in multiple perspectives. I'm curious, if you're willing to share, how have you changed as a result of this work?
Rob Fersh:
Well, thanks to that question. It actually ties to what I was already thinking about. I think the way I've changed is I no longer think that morality itself or the religious values I was raised in requires me to be a certain way politically or otherwise. And I've got to the point now, wherever I hear someone stridently expressing their views on the left or right, that an immediate stop sign goes up and says, "Well, before I just buy that hook, line and sinker, I want to hear the other arguments," because it's always more complex than that. In fact, we use the term complexify in the book.
So for me, I still have my own opinions, but I think it takes a little bit of hubris or maybe a lot of hubris to think that you've got it all figured out, that any one ideology or political party has all the answers and that nobody can improve upon what you already think. Most of us don't have complete knowledge of every subject matter in the world, and even if we did, there are other people who interpret it differently. So I now operate from a different place where I really always want to hear all the different points of view before I jump in. Again, I respond to the news and other things in some ways, which some of the news I find very painful personally, but I always try to understand what's underneath that.
And there are some messengers who I think help me understand that better than others or others who seem strident and not interested in really hearing from other people, but I think the way it's changed me is that I feel like, in some ways, humbled that all my youthful exuberance for certain ideas and causes, some of that still remains, but it means I approach it more cautiously because I know there's always more to it than what I had thought on the surface.
Carrie Fox:
You used a word that is in my last question, which is around moral and moral foundations. And I really appreciated this part of your book, page 92, I have it dog-eared, where you talk about the five moral foundations and how important it's to respect those. So I'd love you just to share a bit about those. What those five moral foundations and why are they so important?
Mariah Levison:
Well, that's some work by an eminent scholar at NYU, John Haidt is his name, and his research shows that we all share some moral foundations around kindness and liberty, loyalty and some other pieces, but they also share that they resonate a little bit differently for people who lean conservative and people who lean liberal in their worldviews as well as their politics. And so it's a way to help us understand when someone's position doesn't make sense to us, that their position might be driven from a different moral foundation, not that they don't have a morality that's driving their position, but that there's a different moral foundation that's driving their position on an issue.
Carrie Fox:
So did I capture this correctly then that a more effective way of going about conversations is to lean into one versus the other, so lean into care versus harm or fairness versus cheating or loyalty versus betrayal? Is that a way to think about that?
Mariah Levison:
Well, I think some advice that's out there is, when people are feeling stuck on their differences and if you know someone comes from the other side of the ideological spectrum or from a different worldview, identifying what might be a driver for them and thinking about framing the issue in that way. And so I think a classic example, a story where this was used at scale was at the time when marriage equality was being debated around the country and there was lots of different legislation before the Supreme Court decision. There was a framing about rights for the right of marriage. There is a framing about families. So there are different ways to talk about ... Marriage equality was a frame that resonated a little bit more on the left and the right to marriage or the importance of family resonated a little bit more on the right with the same goal in mind that all citizens have the goal to get married and to form families with the people that they love.
And so thinking about the way that you talk about things that I think not to in any way trick someone into buying into something that you believe in, but to help them understand where it resonates with a value or moral that's really important to them.
Carrie Fox:
Well, as we come to the end, I'll have one final thought on all of the wisdom you've shared today, but I'm going to turn to the two of you. What is giving you hope? What is having you look ahead and be positive in this divided and strange world we're in as you look ahead to the future?
Rob Fersh:
Well, it's certainly a very tumultuous time and a lot of things going on that are beyond what anyone thought would be going on in this country at this moment in March of 2025. But I think our experience suggests that we're not a different species than we were 10 years ago or 20 years ago. And that if you treat people with respect and convene them in a way that has them feel listened to and you can understand their underlying needs and help them adopt a mindset, I think one of our greatest goals is to have current leaders and future leaders begin to see the world in a way that collaboration isn't seen as a sellout. It's not about compromise that leaves you unsatisfied.
So I'm still hopeful, based upon our experience, and I've been in Washington, D.C. now going on 50 years, that people can come together, that when you develop these relationships of trust and have conversations that are intended to bridge the divides, that the country can come together, the world can come together. But there will be certain challenges when certain out-sized personalities come in and have big ideas and big plans. I respect the fact that a lot of people agree with that and a lot of people disagree with that. And so there are times when our approach may be even more difficult and more challenging given what's going on in the world.
But underneath it all, I think probably both of us agree that most people are decent. Most people intend to be good people, want to be good people and really don't want to be at odds with each other. And understanding that as a fundamental human need and want gives me hope that we'll find our way through to begin to resolve problems much more frequently and thoroughly at all levels of society, whether it be government or the business sector or in philanthropy or on academic campuses.
Mariah Levison:
My answer is pretty similar to Rob's, but this work, I feel so lucky to be in rooms every day that have people from the far left to the far right and everywhere in between and rural areas and urban areas and all different backgrounds, and really consistently, folks find that they can build relationships with each other, that they can come up with solutions, many of which not only can they live with, but they actually think, "Wow, this is a better solution now that we've incorporated the perspectives of all of these different people." And just seeing that happen again and again so consistently gives me a huge amount of hope. Just the people in those rooms, the ideas that they share, getting to have, as Rob shared earlier, my own ideas challenged and to realize even these many years into doing this work, like, "Wow, I never thought of it that way and it's a good point. And that people, all of these different perspectives bring a lot to the mix." So I feel really lucky that that's a part of my work.
And another thing I think that I've been thinking about lately, in the midst of disruption, there can be some opportunities and I think there's some agreement across the ideological spectrum, that life is too hard for too many people. And so is there some opportunity to do some bigger things to try to make more people's lives easier and more satisfying? So that's a hope that I hold onto as well.
Carrie Fox:
And we shouldn't discount the incredible impact that you both and your team have had in making progress in some of those what are often seen as intractable issues, right? Not only do you know how to bring people together to have powerful and necessary conversations, but your work has resulted in such long-term and lasting policy change and impact. And it's one of the many reasons why I really admire the two of you and the work that you have done because of how real the impact has been.
Rob Fersh:
Thank you very much.
Mariah Levison:
Thank you so much for that, Carrie. And I think it's these little steps that people can take and I hope people will reach out to Convergence and get involved in our organization and look at some of the resources we have because they're not magic. They're there, they're laid on the book. We have other resources. We engage with folks in training and other things, but it is really possible. It's been my whole career to bring people together across their difference, to build those relationships and come up with those solutions that can lead to durable change. It's not easy, I'm not saying that, but it can work really reliably. So we look forward to supporting other leaders who are your listeners or out there in the world and sharing more tools for solving our shared problems together.
Carrie Fox:
Well, I mentioned at the top, I was at your summit last year. I've just RSVP'd to be at the summit this year. I am so looking forward to it. And as we wrap up, and perhaps what I'll do is, after that session, I'll do a reflection again for this audience on what happened in that room or what will happen in that room. But I want to close, actually, Mariah, sharing with you that, several months ago, I wrote an article called In Your Words and Insights. It was drawn from a column you had written on the 10 important beliefs that most Americans share. And I found it so helpful to read your words and your data taking stock of the values we share and the values we're willing to work for.
And what I said in that article, I'll say now as a closing to this episode, that we can choose to see what we want in data, but the fact remains that we need to work hard to achieve the desired effect. We need to want to come together. We need to practice respect, compassion and gratitude in our words and our actions. So thank you, Mariah and Rob, for giving us some guidance and focus along that path and thanks for the great conversation today.
Rob Fersh:
Thank you for this wonderful opportunity. Yes, thank you.
Carrie Fox:
And that wraps this episode of Mission Forward. Hey, if you heard something today sticking with you or someone who could benefit from this conversation, pass it along and let me know that shows like this one are benefiting you along your path to navigating conflict by leaving a rating or a review on the podcast platform where you're listening right now. It makes all the difference and helps us get this content into the ears of people who need it. So thanks for listening and I'll see you on the next episode of Mission Forward.
