Civility in Focus with SHRM’s Jim Link
About This Episode
This week, Carrie Fox sits down with Jim Link, Chief Human Resources Officer for SHRM, to discuss the growing issue of workplace incivility and how to foster a culture of respect and inclusion.
Link shares startling statistics from SHRM's research, revealing that two-thirds of employees have witnessed acts of incivility in the workplace within the last six months, with 50% experiencing it in the last week alone. He emphasizes the importance of creating a balanced "four-legged stool" of workplace cultures: collaboration, learning, innovation, and inclusion.
To combat the rise of incivility, SHRM has launched the "1 Million Civil Conversations" initiative, aimed at encouraging respectful dialogue and interactions among colleagues. Link discusses the overwhelmingly positive response to the campaign and the creative ways organizations are implementing the "Cards Against Incivility" toolkit to promote civility.
Tune in to learn more about how you can contribute to a more civil and inclusive workplace, one conversation at a time. SHRM's resources and toolkits are available for download at SHRM.org. Join the movement by using the hashtag #CivilityAtWork.
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Carrie Fox:
Hey there, and welcome to Mission Forward. Before we get into this episode, I want to share that we've got a wonderful sponsor who has helped create some content for this season, and that's SHRM. Did you know that most American workers experience incivility at work, and one-third believe it will only get worse? SHRM, the trusted authority on all things work, believes that civility is a cornerstone of workplace culture and that it allows people and businesses to thrive. Imagine a world of work that fosters respect across the exchange of ideas and opinions. Well, SHRM is on a mission to empower all of us to transform our workplaces one conversation at a time. Learn how at SHRM.org. And now, onto today's show.
Speaker 2:
Breaking News. Breaking News. It's the year of the chatbot. The latest setback for Climate Act. The latest Supreme Court ruling. In the latest Supreme Court ruling, the court is set to redefine.
Carrie Fox:
Hi there, and welcome to the Mission Forward podcast. I'm Carrie Fox, your host, equity champion and CEO of Mission Partners, a social impact communications firm and certified B corporation. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode.
As you know, this year, we are taking on the issues that are most deeply affecting leaders, managers, and workplaces amid a divisive time and a contentious political year. I have written quite a bit about this increased polarization in our workplace and how employees are fearing for their psychological safety, and how intertwined, quite honestly, so many of these conversations are with the shifts in the DEI movement. I was just reading Fortune Magazine earlier today and they had some data points I wanted to share with you all around how the legal challenges have forced several businesses to withdraw from DEI programs, how a string of chief diversity officers have left their posts or have been pushed out, and how the US has seen anti-DEI agitators launch boycotts of brands that dare to hold their ground. We are in unprecedented times, but that does not mean we can't do anything proactive about it.
So where's the human resource manager when we need them most? Well, today, the human resource manager of all human resource managers is here with us to help us explore and understand the moment we're in and to build some very important bridges beyond these difficult times. Our guest today is Jim Link, chief human resources officer for SHRM. With more than 315,000 members in 165 countries, SHRM is the largest HR professional association in the world, so Jim knows a thing or two about building best in class equitable workplaces. He's also been pretty instrumental in launching a new national initiative called 1 Million Civil Conversations. That initiative is aimed at fostering inclusive and respectful workplace culture that allows people and businesses to thrive, and I am hungry to learn more about that. There's a lot to get into so let's dive right in.
Jim, welcome to Mission Forward.
Jim Link:
Thank you, Carrie. It is a great pleasure to be with you today.
Carrie Fox:
I'm so glad to have you. So Jim, let's start where we always do here at Mission Forward with maybe a story. I'd love you to tell us a little more about you, and what inspired you to get into this business of people and talent management?
Jim Link:
Well, Carrie, it's an interesting story that has lots of fits and starts, and it's a great story I think because I grew up in a way where it was on a working family farm. I learned very, very early the importance of hard work and determination and just sheer grit to be able to accomplish whatever it is that you wanted to accomplish in the world. I was fortunate enough to be able to go to university. I'm a first-generation college student from my family, and there, I was awakened to a new world of opportunity and learning and capability. And while I was there, I obtained an internship with the General Electric Company, and that was my first foray, my first introduction, if you will, into the whole world of corporate America.
And from there, I learned what it's like to be able to work with, to understand, to find the promise in people, and I learned that at a very, very early stage in that environment, and it set me on a course I hope that will lead to creating a world that's a better world of work for everyone. And that's certainly our mission here at SHRM, is to build a better world of work for workers and in the workplace itself. So I'm all about that. I'm super excited about that, and anything that we can do to help tell that story, I love being on that path to helping others on that journey.
Carrie Fox:
That's amazing, and I love that phrase, the promise of people. What a great way to think about your purpose in the world, is to support unlocking the promise in people.
Jim Link:
It absolutely is, and that manifests itself in so many ways. Even the way that you have a conversation in the hallway or you're walking on a shop manufacturing floor, helping those people who you encounter in whatever way and every day understand that they bring value and purpose to their work and to themselves through their work, and I learned that at a very, very early age, that sometimes our whole sense of identity is tied to what we get up and go do every day. And I've never forgotten that, and I just wanted to have a part in helping that interaction be better for everyone.
Carrie Fox:
I love that. So at the top, I mentioned three letters, DEI, and what's interesting, Jim, is with my clients, I often say around their DEI work, "Don't use those letters. Tell me what those letters represent. Tell me what they mean. Talk to me about your DEI initiatives without D, E and I in your answer." And you all have a really wonderful way of thinking about this where you said maybe the letters are in the wrong order, but you also think really differently about what those letters represent.
Jim Link:
We do. We call it IED, and we do that for a very specific reason, because in my mind and in the minds of all of us here at SHRM, it begins with inclusion. And if we can create a culture where that inclusion is part of the who we are as an organization, a lot of those things that have happened in the past related to diversity initiatives, diversity tools, programs, processes, those things actually, while they're very, very important as tools, they're not the outcome that you're looking for in an organization. What you're looking for is inclusion, and Carrie, as you well know from your consulting work, this is absolutely tied to the culture that's established in any organization and the experience that any employee has on any given day with that culture.
That's what we try to focus on here at SHRM. We think of it that way, and we actually are actively building four cultures here. And if you will imagine as I'm describing this, a four-legged stool. It's that simple. If you think about the four cultures that I believe any organization should be working to build simultaneously, they are cultures of collaboration, cultures of learning, cultures of innovation, and finally, a culture of inclusion. And if you think about that as a four-legged stool, you want that stool to be balanced. One leg can't be shorter than the other or longer than the other. That stool has to be well-balanced, and you do that by working on all four of those things simultaneously.
What's even more exciting to me, Carrie, is what you get if you imagine that typical employee sitting atop that stool, sitting on that stool. You want them to feel balanced, and my view is that if you get that balance right by focusing on those four cultures, what you inevitably end up with is a culture of care, and that to me is what we all want. Whether intrinsically or extrinsically or after, if you think about the interactions that we have every day, we really want to be cared for, we want to be valued, we want to be appreciated, and we want to work in a place where those are the hallmarks or cornerstones of how any organization should function.
So that's how we think about it. We actively and openly talk about that with our 300 and some odd thousand members around the world. We talk about focusing on building those cultures because if you get that right, a lot of the things that you face on a day-to-day basis as a human resources practitioner get a lot easier to solve.
Carrie Fox:
I love this, Jim, what you've just set up for us, the four-legged stool and thinking about multiple cultures, not just one. But I imagine folks are listening and thinking, "Gosh, that's a unicorn. How would you ever make that happen within the state of workplaces today when people feel so polarized?" The idea of getting there feels impossible. Now, I know it's not because SHRM is making some really good headway on this, so I'm curious to have you tell us more.
Jim Link:
Yeah. If you think about what you can do in any one of those spaces or any one of the legs of that stool to follow along here with our visualization of how this might work, we're not talking about things that are difficult honestly or even hard to do. We're talking about things that are attitudinal and behavioral in their approach, and we every day can make a decision about how we're going to approach when someone comes to us with a new idea. That's innovation.
We can think about when someone shares an opportunity to learn or we provide them with a learning environment. That's something that happens hopefully in a granular way and doesn't cost a lot of money to the organization. It's the approach that you take to thinking about that. If you think about collaboration, well, every day, you're collaborating with someone, and you can choose whether you can work on things independently or you can work as a team in a collaborative way to make something happen.
And then finally, on inclusion, that's a mindset. It's an attitude. It's a way of behaving and thinking, and if inclusion is what you're after as an organization, those initiatives that you put into place might actually sometimes be getting in the way of what you're trying to do if you're trying to build an inclusive behavior. All that to say, be purposeful, but don't over-complicate it. Make it easy. Think about the way that you want someone to feel after they engage with you in every interaction, and if you focus on those things, you're going to get those cultures. You don't have to build a program or make it hard. You have to change the way you think.
Carrie Fox:
Right. Your daily actions.
Jim Link:
That's right. That's just a purposeful action on your part to achieve a new and exciting way of making things happen in your organization.
Carrie Fox:
Jim, do you have a story of an organization you've seen within the SHRM members or within SHRM of how you see this working in practice?
Jim Link:
I have several stories about that, and we won't talk about the names of any of those organizations but I'm happy to share the specific piece of that. In one environment, I remember this happened to be a manufacturing environment, and there was a course that was being taught for individuals who really wanted to be uplifted. They wanted to get new skills in order to qualify to be a leader or a manufacturing manager in that particular organization. And I remember this one woman in particular in this story who was a rather quiet person, rather introverted, had all kinds of smarts, all kinds of capability but lacked this belief that she could achieve. She lacked that belief. And in this particular story, what was effective was in the course of that programming, you had to give speeches. You had to learn how to stand up in the front of other people and tell a story, much like you and I are talking today, just in the interest of storytelling, and this woman was so petrified to stand in front of other people to give a presentation.
This particular instructor said, "Okay, this isn't going to work, so we're going to change your view." So what he did was he asked the entire class to stand behind her as she spoke to a room full of empty chairs, and learned how to first of all be comfortable standing there and doing that, then speaking to the empty chairs, then speaking to one or two people sitting in those chairs, and eventually the entire class sitting in those chairs. The importance of that story is what happened was the perspective was changed, and so many people forget. And I think it's going to lead, Carrie, to this discussion we're going to later have about civility. That perspective matters, and if you can change the perspective of another person just by getting those classroom participants to stand behind the speaker instead of sitting in front of the speaker, just think what we can do in our society, what we can do in our workplaces, just if we're open to the idea of changing our perspective.
It's that way with IED. It's like that with any of the other cultures that we talked about earlier. It's about the purposeful shifting of your own lens to assist someone else in shifting their lens, and I just think we've forgotten that. It's a bit of a lost art, and I want us at SHRM to reengage, and if necessary, reinvent the idea of dialogue as a solution set to human issues and concerns.
Carrie Fox:
I've been reading a lot of Jonathan Haidt's work recently, and his new book is The Anxious Generation. He talks about the impact of a phone-based life on humans and how there is so much value in going back to a time when we were not beholden to our phones and our technology, because human nature allows us to be together. We're our best when we are together, when we're learning from one another, when we're picking up visual and verbal cues from one another, and we've got this opportunity. I love that you went to perspective because it really is the heart of the human experience, how we learn about one another. We learn to agree and disagree with one another and can still respect one another in that process.
Jim Link:
That's absolutely right, and in many ways, Carrie, that is an art form that we have somewhat moved away from. There's a lot of research going on right now about whether technology has actually caused this problem to become worse or if it actually can be a solution set to some of the things that we're seeing happening in our society now. I actually think both can be true at the same time, and it's true. Now, I feel uniquely qualified to talk about the younger generation of employees in our workplace, mainly because I am the father of four of them, two off the payroll, Carrie, and two to go. But I'm absolutely 100% convinced that what I see, even the way I have changed my own parenting around the use of technology.
I still remember years ago yelling into the basement telling people to come up to dinner. That was a waste of my time because no one heard me. They all had earphones on. They were playing games and engaging in their own way with people all over the world in a way that was appropriate for them in that particular moment in time. So I think I as a father and we as leaders in companies have to learn that if we're going to interact in a way for which we expect a response from folks, then we have to interact in a way that they understand. So in that scenario, Carrie, what did I start doing? I started texting my own kids to come up for dinner.
Speaker 2:
Speak their language.
Jim Link:
Texting my own kids in my own home, because that was the language. And guess what? It worked because they were always hungry. It worked. So again, that's part of that lost art of learning to meet people where they are at that moment, and to determine the best way to share, to engage, to be a part of that socialization effort. So I'm not a blamer of social media or technology. I actually think what I have to do is reprogram myself to learn how to use it effectively in the moment.
There is a study though, Carrie, that I find very interesting about that particular topic. What it basically found was that in day-to-day interactions that are deemed to be normal, particularly by folks who are younger, the emerging folks in our workforces today, they want the dialogue to be digital, whatever that digital medium is. But what was fascinating about this particular piece of research is that if it mattered to them, they still wanted that face-to-face communication. So what that tells me is that that need for human connectivity and face-to-face dialogue and socialization and societal expectations, those really haven't shifted. They might have just gone to a different place, they might be viewed in a different way, but when it still really matters, when it's still really important, the best way for us to communicate with each other is in the way you've described, in a face-to-face, let's sit down, get to know each other, get to share an experience with each other. Let's read each other's faces. Let's read each other's body language, because we evolved as societies and that society is still a very important core component of who we are as people.
Carrie Fox:
Right. Now, there's another important piece, and this will get us into that stability conversation, and it's around trust, that another important piece of research shows that we inherently trust each other more when we are in each other's presence, when we are in sync with one another, versus if you're speaking one way and communicating one way and I'm speaking another and communicating another, it will be hard for us to trust one another. And there is so much space between people in this moment. SHRM has created this really wonderful initiative to close that space, to start to bring people back together around conversations that matter, so tell us more about that.
Jim Link:
We have, and Carrie, it's important to set this up in the right way. So what we noticed over the last two to three years, and by the way, you should know that we are a big voice of customer organization. We absolutely listen to our members, to our clients, to the people that impact SHRM. We actively listened to them, and we noticed this trend that people were reporting more and more acts of what we determined as to what we eventually came to call incivility in the workplace. And those acts of incivility ranged in everything from the snub or the tone in the email all the way down, and fortunately reported less so, to acts of violence. So everything from the snub to taking a punch in the face were things that we heard, and we're like, what in the world is going on? Why is this happening in the workplace?
Well, then we began to think, how can we study this? How can we understand this to A, see if this is more than just anecdotes. Is this actually something that's occurring? As it turned out, the answer to that question is yes, yes and yes. It is occurring in big ways, in ways I had never imagined. When I first read the research findings, I actually thought what I was seeing was a typo. I thought it was an error. I was completely gobsmacked.
And what we found, Carrie, was that roughly two of the people who responded to our survey had indicated that they had witnessed an act of incivility in the last six months, and 50% of the people told us that they had witnessed... I'm sorry, in the last month. They'd witnessed an act of incivility in the last month. 50% told us that they had witnessed an act of incivility in the last week. That's powerful.
Carrie Fox:
That is powerful.
Jim Link:
And it's much more than what I had anticipated that people would see. So then you get into, well, what is the definition of incivility? Is it only on the receiver of that action that it's incivility? And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. If there is an act of incivility and someone deems that to be an act of incivility, then it is incivil to them.
Carrie Fox:
And Jim, I think what's important here too is inside the data, it sounds like this is across sectors, this is across demographics, this is across age groups. It's essentially a universal experience. Is that right?
Jim Link:
It is a universal experience. The data, as you correctly pointed out, Carrie, the data is a little more specific around particularly women in the workplace, and they reported higher degrees, slightly higher degrees of all of those stats that I just shared with you than did their male counterparts. So there are some slight demographic differences when you look at it, but overall, the storyline is still one that shocked us and made us realize that if anyone was going to attempt to reintroduce the idea of civility in the workplace, it likely needed to be us. Why is that?
One, if you look around at what's happening in our world today, in the larger macroeconomic environment we're in today, we have a federal election coming up later this year. Matter of fact, the two largest democracies in the world, the United States and India, are both having federal elections this year. We are seeing increasing changes related to how we view each other. We see people being overly brave in the way that they communicate on social media. We see interventionists trying to impact our elections. So if you think about what's going on, it's just mind-numbing what our workers are faced with whenever they step outside the boundaries of the walls of any office or factory or anywhere else that they might work. So we elected to attempt to tackle this. We elected to say, look, if anyone's going to be able to move the needle on reintroducing civility as a core component of the workplace, it needs to be SHRM.
So we launched 1 Million Civil Conversations. This is a campaign that's designed and aimed at anyone who wants to participate to be able to really track the idea that instead of witnessing uncivil acts, we're actually purposely measuring our attempt to drive 1 million civil conversations going forward. We're trying to just basically flip the dial, flip the switch, change the narrative around this very important idea of civility. We've been incredibly surprised and happy with what we've seen about how people have latched on to this idea, what they've done with the tools and resources that we've provided to them at SHRM.org. And I'm so happy and proud to talk about this because this is personal and near and dear to me, we actually are seeing people report out that by simply reintroducing the idea and the expectation that civility is a component of the workplace, that it's changing the narrative there.
And how do you start? You start one step at a time. That's our start. It's not perfect. It's hard to track and measure, but we're encouraging people to do that at #civilityatwork. We believe that that is actually going to enable us to be able to find new and exciting ways through the learnings that those people had to inform others. So we don't believe we're starting a campaign. We believe that we are at the forefront of a movement, and I'm happy to be one of the faces of that movement here at SHRM. And I was so excited when we launched this at South by Southwest a few weeks ago. There were people literally wrapped around the block to get into the location where we were to hear about how we were going to do this. You don't know how much that excites me on every level.
Carrie Fox:
So the folks who are wrapped around the block, and I know it's South by Southwest and the answer might be somewhat different because of the audience, but do you find that this is appealing to folks at every level of an organization, at the highest levels of an organization, at the middle of an organization? Who feels like they need it the most?
Jim Link:
The answer to that question is everyone. I haven't seen a bifurcation or a split in any way of who's asking us for these resources. I do know that human resources managers and leaders feel compelled to help their workforces, and they view this as a tool and a capability to help reintroduce the idea of civility into their workplaces. And they're seizing it, they're grabbing it. They're downloading the toolkits from our sites. They are talking about this. They're hashtagging it. They're doing everything they can to help spread the story.
It's funny, one recent example, we have what we call the Cards for Civility as a toolkit, and one person told us that they downloaded those in color, they laminated them is the old word. There's a new way to describe what you do with that, but they basically took them and made them part of their learning program for their new employees coming into their organization, but also set that expectation for their managers and leaders in that organization. So they're using it. They're turning what we thought of as cards against incivility as now part of a learning process in their organization. I love those stories, and there's countless numbers of those stories where people are activating this in whatever way is right in their company.
Carrie Fox:
Can you give us an example of what's on one of those cards for civility?
Jim Link:
I absolutely can, and matter of fact, I think I have it right here. I do. It's called Cards Against Incivility, and this is downloadable on the SHRM website. So one of those cards, for example, says when tough talks in the workplace arise, how do you react? And it gives a clue as to how you should respond. Name three ingredients for a civil conversation. What are civility icebreakers? And it gives you some bubbles of what those might be. What are the issues today most negatively impacting civility? Well, we know that, right? We talked about those statistics today. What happens if incivility is allowed to run rampant in your workplace? Well, you have more turnover, more retention issues, less engagement, less productivity. The math goes on and on. How does social media impact civility? Can a genuine compliment halt conflict in its tracks? What tactics have you used to quell the office rumor mill? How can I as a business leader create a culture of civility through inclusion, equity, and diversity? And the list goes on and on.
Carrie Fox:
Jim, you know what I love about this so much, is, A, you are really helping people build back a muscle that has been in some ways atrophied. We know what happens when we don't exercise on a physical level. This is similar to what happens when we aren't actively using our civility muscle.
Jim Link:
You're absolutely right, and we had every excuse brought on by the pandemic to hide in our own shells, to resort to the digital way of communicating with each other, and you're right. So we actually had a valid reason out there in the world. Just because we didn't want to, we had to shut down the world for a little while, and so you're absolutely right, Carrie, that muscle was allowed to move into a state of atrophy. It's now time to exercise that muscle. I love the way you phrased that, and these are tools to help you exercise it.
Carrie Fox:
Right, and what's so nice about it also is I think it's common for people to hear polarization and go right to political polarization, and yes, that is a very important and major issue inside workplaces, but the frame you've created allows us to have conversations with one another that do not have to become political. They're intentionally not political. They're human.
Jim Link:
That's right, and even if they are political, that's okay because we should actually be in an environment where we want to encourage that openness and honesty, and from that, you get the idea of trust, you get transparency, you get genuineness. You get so many things from just allowing a culture where it's okay to express ideas, certainly within guardrails, right? We can't go too far, but express ideas in the right way where we encourage that dialogue. And that all starts, Carrie, and this is where I really spend most of my time talking to managers and leaders and our own members here at SHRM about how to do this, it begins with relearning how to empathetically listen to another human being.
Carrie Fox:
Thank you for going there because that's where I wanted to make sure we ended today. You talk about extreme listening.
Jim Link:
I do.
Carrie Fox:
I talk about radical listening, but listening is so important, so tell us a little more how you think about that extreme listening.
Jim Link:
We try to coach people along the idea that silence and listening is as part of the conversation as is speaking. And I just give the example, we have two ears and one mouth for a reason. We should be listening twice as much as we are speaking, and if you begin with that basic premise of just looking at the typical face of how we are all constructed as human beings, there's a reason for that.
We should be learning from the world around us, and that most usually occurs when our mouths are closed and our ears are open. And if we practice that craft more delicately and more purposefully, we not only will be viewed to be more purposeful and more compassionate as human beings, but we will send that signal that we actually really care about what another human being is having to say at that particular moment, whether we want to hear it or not. We're engaged in the art of listening, and for me anyway, even when I'm sitting here listening to another employee talk to me about any situation, any matter, a business problem, a human resource, whatever it is, I purposely try to listen twice as much as I speak. And I think if we just keep that simple mathematical exercise in mind, that even goes a long way toward improving our own empathetic listening skill and capability.
Carrie Fox:
I was chatting with a colleague earlier today, and she was quite upset because a colleague had lost his temper and she felt like it was her fault. And we talked through that situation and I said to her, "I am fairly certain that what happened today wasn't about you. It's probably about whatever's happening within his own life today. It sounds like he's having a tough day." And so maybe we can remember that it's not about us, but we've got a chance to maybe listen deeper or give him some space or come back around tomorrow and see if there's something that we can work through with him, but that it's easy to take things personally and we have the opportunity to listen deeper to see if there's something we can better about each other.
Jim Link:
That is so true, and I triggered in on something that you said. That person reported to you that the boss lost their temper.
Carrie Fox:
Yes.
Jim Link:
She didn't lose hers.
Carrie Fox:
No.
Jim Link:
The boss lost, assuming it's a man, lost his temper, so it's important to put that into perspective. That was his to lose, it wasn't hers to lose, and we shouldn't lose sight of that as we're thinking about how to do this. So if I were coaching and counseling that particular employee in that situation, I would say just those words. Remember who lost their temper here, and that was an action they had to undertake that you did not have to undertake.
Carrie Fox:
Right, and folks are always going through more than we can see on face value, and again, if you're using those ears and using those eyes and thinking about all of our senses, then we can find ways to come closer together and support one another, more than anything, to support one another.
Jim Link:
That's exactly right. SHRM completely and totally believes that if we focus on this and if we think about reintroducing civility as a cornerstone of how we engage with each other, we're going to make an impact. We know that. We just hope that this spreads beyond the workplace. We hope it spreads into our homes and into our communities, and even further. And boy, I know this is a tough putt, but hopefully it'll expand just down the street here from me in Washington DC. Because it all starts somewhere and we just want to have an impact in the workplace, and we believe that, again, this is something that can be a movement, not just a campaign, and I am happy to be associated with that in this fantastic organization that we call SHRM.
Carrie Fox:
I love that so much. Well, what I'm taking away from this is that really, it is. Civility is a muscle. We need to learn it, we need to practice it, we need to grow it, we need to share it, and most importantly, we need to model it. So thank you, Jim, for this wonderful conversation. We are going to have a number of resources in the notes of this podcast episode so folks can get involved. They can download those resources and they can continue to contribute getting towards that 1 million civil conversations. Thanks, Jim, for being with us.
Jim Link:
It's a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Carrie Fox:
Did you know that most American workers experience incivility at work and one third of those workers believe it will only get worse? SHRM, the trusted authority on all things work, believes that civility is a cornerstone of workplace culture that allows people and businesses to thrive. Now, just imagine a world of work that fosters respect across an exchange of ideas and opinions. Well, SHRM is on a mission to empower us all to transform our workplaces, one conversation at a time. Learn how and join them at SHRM.org.
And that brings us to the end of another episode of Mission Forward. If you like what you heard today, I hope you'll stop right now and give this show a five-star rating wherever you are listening to this podcast. Maybe even forward it to a friend who you think would enjoy today's conversation, and of course, check out the show notes for all of the links referenced in today's show. Mission Forward is produced with the support and wisdom of Pete Wright and the True Story production team, as well as the wonderful Sadie Lockhart of Mission Partners. You can learn more about our work over at Missionforward.us, and of course, reach out to me anytime at Carrie@mission.partners. Thanks for tuning in today, friend, and I'll see you next time.
