The Purpose Economy with Laurence Evans
About This Episode
Laurence Evans is the CEO of Reputation Leaders and a global thought leader on building trust and reputation. This week on the show, Laurence joins Carrie for a conversation that pushes against the boundaries of settled leadership assumptions.
Laurence's journey into purpose-driven work began early, inspired by his father's example as a mayor who made a significant difference in their community. His experiences at Edelman, working on groundbreaking projects like the Dove Report on Real Beauty Self-Esteem and the "Dirt is Good" campaign, solidified his belief that companies can pursue a purpose while also benefiting their brand. This realization led him to establish Reputation Leaders, with the aim of helping companies build positive reputations that create a virtuous circle.
Carrie and Laurence delve into the challenges CEOs face in speaking out on important issues without alienating key audiences. Laurence shares fascinating research revealing that while conversations around diversity, equity, and inclusion have increased since George Floyd's death, many CEOs lack a plan for addressing these topics. He emphasizes the importance of listening to employees, board members, and customers, as well as setting clear values and commitments to sustainability and DEI.
"Diversity is good for business," he says. "Why do I believe that?"
First, embracing diversity opens up new, underserved markets. Second, bringing together people from diverse backgrounds leads to different perspectives and better decision-making.
"We rush into the emotional side of it and we don't actually say, 'You know what? There's a very good reason why we're doing this. It's just good for business.'" The lesson, then, is that by framing DEI as a strategic business imperative, rather than a moral obligation, we can more effectively communicate the value and necessity of our DEI initiatives to a broader set of stakeholders.
For Laurence, leadership lessons boil down to the wisdom of everyday Americans, who increasingly believe CEOs should speak to environmental issues, refrain from taking sides on geopolitical issues, and address social issues that relate to their company's values. Put simply: "When we asked people back in November, 'What do you want companies to do most in 2024?' The answer was integrity. We just want them to do what they say."
This week's show brings invaluable guidance for purpose-driven CEOs navigating a polarized world. The issues we face are many and they are significant. But if we learn anything from Laurence's experience, sometimes simple statements of authenticity—repeated clearly—are the most valuable in building trust that lasts. Our great thanks to Laurence and Reputation Leaders for making this conversation possible.
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Speaker 1:
Breaking news.
Speaker 2:
Breaking news. It's the year of the chatbot. The latest setback for climate action. The latest Supreme Court ruling ...
Speaker 1:
In the latest Supreme Court ruling, the court is set to redefine ...
Carrie Fox:
Hi there, and welcome to the Mission Forward Podcast. I'm Carrie Fox, your host and CEO of Mission Partners, a social impact communications firm and certified B corporation. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode.
You're catching us early into season nine, and this is guaranteed to be a great conversation. In part because of how well this conversation today aligns with our inaugural episode from this season with the brilliant Carole Cone. In case you missed it, just a couple weeks back we had Carol Cone on the show to help us set the scene for the year ahead. We talked about unlimited potential of purpose in this consequential year and she gave us a couple of Carol Cone deep breaths to help us make sense of the headlines, too.
Today's conversation is going to give you even more insights to power your work in the year ahead. That's because I'm delighted to have with us today Laurence Evans, CEO of Reputation Leaders, and a global thought leader in how to positively build trust and reputation. Laurence and I are both members of Carol's Purpose Collaborative, and I am always struck by how many incredible insights he has right at his fingertips. No surprise though, Laurence is go-to counsel to C-suite executives around the world. His insights have informed reputation strategies for clients such as Unilever, Toyota, PepsiCo, PayPal and Chobani. Today, he's going to share with us some new research about how CEOs are feeling in this year, and we'll work to understand what those feelings mean for your own actions in the year ahead.
Laurence, it is wonderful to have you here on Mission Forward.
Laurence Evans:
Carrie, it's wonderful to be here. Carol is a good friend of both of ours, and I'm delighted to be having this conversation. I think it's very timely.
Carrie Fox:
It sure is. We're going to start at the beginning, the way we like to do here at Mission Forward. I've given folks the big picture view of you who you are, but now let's actually learn a little more about who you are. Tell us about how you got into this work, what brings you to purpose work, and wherever you want to start, we're ready to listen.
Laurence Evans:
Well, thank you. First of all, I'm a New Zealander currently living in the UK, but have lived in the US and have lived in four continents, moved 22 times and done business in 50 countries around the world. A bit of a global traveler.I guess my journey probably started pretty early. My father always encouraged us to leave the world a better place than we found it, and that impetus to make a difference, I think. And through his example, he was mayor of our city for nine years and I saw the difference that he made in the community. I think that inspired me.
I had the opportunity, in 2007, to join Edelman as the global head of research in a company called StrategyOne, which was an amazing opportunity, and ran the Trust Barometer then for seven years. But there were a couple of early projects that we did that really just changed my mind about the importance of combining brand purpose and social purpose together.
The first of which is probably well known to you, was the original Dove report on real beauty self-esteem. That was done by StrategyOne back in 2004. The key insight there was only 2% of women in the world would describe themselves as beautiful. It was shocking. But it was a real pushback against what, in those days and still is, this very catwalk, very advertising driven view about beauty. It was a real call to democratize beauty, to redefine it, and particularly to redefine the image that young women had of themselves. From that, really I got involved in helping the Dove brand, as part of Unilever, and they launched of course a fantastic piece of thought leadership in the Dove self-esteem beauty campaign. It will train a quarter of a million young people on self positive body image by the year 2030. It's a good example of how thought leadership has continued to change lives, but it's also enabled Dove to change from being a soap bar to a beauty bar.
Then, I did a number of other projects like that. I was on the brand board for Dirt is Good for a couple years. Dirt is Good, again, the key insight there was, we did a global study and we found out that 90% of kids had a television, spend a lot of time in front of television, but only about 30% of those ever spent a lot of time outdoors in nature. The aha moment from that is there's a generation growing up who has no connection to the outdoors, no connection to the environment. Unless they do, unless they can get their fingernails dirty, and they can see frogs, and climb trees, and others, they're never going to care about nature. Instead of thinking of dirt is bad, why don't we think about dirt as good and make it a positive thing. That kids should go out and get dirty, and they should play, and there's no trouble to wash their clothes. It was a brilliant example of a brand taking a social purpose and using it for something that was aligned to their brand.
I think, for me, the aha moment was it doesn't have to be a trade off. You can make money and do good. You can pursue for something that has a purpose, but also make it good for your brand. In light of that, in the work I was doing, the Trust Barometer, the quest became how can we help more companies do that? Find something that's really true to their brand purpose, but also has a really strong social purpose as well.
Carrie Fox:
Right. Laurence, I am realizing here that your superpower is truly seeing things that many people don't see. You come across these amazing ahas that, my goodness, as a woman I thank you, and as a parent of two girls who like to play in the dirt, I thank you. But the ability to listen so deeply, and then make sense of the data, truly is you and your team's superpower.
Laurence Evans:
It is. We have a fantastic team. We have eight staff from six countries who speak seven languages. I like to say that Reputation Leaders is a place where the curious come to work.
Carrie Fox:
Ah, I love that!
Laurence Evans:
I do think it's true. I do think I deliberately hire people who love to travel, who enjoy culture, who speak languages because you're looking for people who are fundamentally just interested in the world.
Carrie Fox:
Right.
Laurence Evans:
And are interesting people. When you get a group of people like that, and you get the chance to get to work with some great clients, then insights happen because people bring different views, you have different perspectives. Yes, research is one tool to getting to those insights, but the insights come from the people you bring together.
Carrie Fox:
Let's talk about you as a business owner yourself, before we look at the data. When did you decide that you were going to break out and build your own firm? Or, why?
Laurence Evans:
About a decade ago, in 2013, I started Reputation Leaders. I'd worked on the Trust Barometer with Edelman. I'd seen the power of taking global thought leadership to places like Davos and really making a difference. I wanted to do that for other companies. I think that trust is really important. But trust, in many cases, is an outcome of building a good reputation of many years. There's more things to reputation than purely trust.
Our model of reputation says you've got to have a great brand, that's absolutely true. But you've also got to be orientated towards the people and planet. You've got to do the right thing for people and you've got to do the right thing for the planet. That's not optional, all three of those have to come together. Your brand, your profit, your people, and so on. So how can we help companies build reputation in a way that becomes a virtuous circle?
Many people talk about reputations negatively, which is they're destroyed by scandals, or like Deep Horizon, big oil spill, or anything else. But actually, if you have a really good reputation, there's a fantastic upside because customers want to buy from you, they're loyal, employees want to work for you, media reports you well, regulators give you the time of day, et cetera. So many people focus on the negative aspects of reputation, I wanted to focus on the positive aspects. Which is how can you help companies build reputation that actually becomes a virtuous circle? And it does, with the best companies.
Carrie Fox:
Right.
Laurence Evans:
They're well managed, people want to work for them, they have an inspiring purpose, they make good money, et cetera. That's what inspired me to start Reputation Leaders.
Carrie Fox:
Wow, I love that. Do you know the basketball coach, passed away a few years ago? John Wooden had this great quote that he would say often to his basketball players. He would say, "Don't worry so much about your reputation, focus first on your character." That's who you are on the inside. The more you practice building your character, the stronger you reputation will become. Reputation is the way other people see you, character's the way you see yourself.
I'm curious to get your take on that. Do you see that two-sided component of reputation also?
Laurence Evans:
I do. It's interesting that, when you look at leadership, leadership in the founding fathers of America was all about character. Character, and competence, compassion, all those Cs. Over time, it's become redefined as charisma. We've entered the celebrity era, where essentially you're deemed a leader if you have charisma and celebrity power. But actually, if you go back to the roots of the founding fathers, actually character matters. I think ultimately, character does matter in any leader.
Interestingly, when we asked people back in November, "What do you want companies to do most in 2024?" The answer was integrity. "We just want them to do what they say." That's a key part of any leader is the consistency and the character, just to continue to do the right thing, day after day, which is a lot harder than we say.
Carrie Fox:
Right.
Laurence Evans:
Yeah. People are fed up, rightly, with companies who say one thing and do another.
Carrie Fox:
Right.
Laurence Evans:
That disconnect I think, which is ultimately a character issue, eventually you get found out.
Carrie Fox:
That tees us up really well, Laurence, for some of the research we want to talk about, that you and I agree on many things. One very important one is the idea that business can be a force for good, and that we can do good in the world based on the decisions on behalf of people and planet. And yet, in the world we live in, we see people getting sued, and we see their businesses having to close, because of their commitment to try to do right by people.
One of those examples I shared with you this morning. I woke up this morning, cover story of Inc. Magazine features an interview with the Fearless Fund founder, a woman Arian Simone, whose investment firm had basically the bottom taken out from under them when their organization was sued by a conservative group for giving grants to historically disadvantaged groups. That essentially is the core of their business purpose.
We read stories like this and we aren't surprised, in some ways, that CEOs and leaders are pulling back from their public commitments. But we know that's not a solution for progress. I'm really curious what the data is telling us about how CEOs are showing up in this very divisive, complicated time we're in?
Laurence Evans:
Well, I think you've hit it on the head. It is a complicated and divisive world we live in, and it's increasingly polarized. That's in a year where 49% of the world's voting in 64 countries, so we can expect emotions to be high and polarization to be ripe. It's not an easy world to navigate.
I did some quick research before the show and we went back over the last four years, since George Floyd died. Actually, the conversations around diversity, equity and inclusion have actually increased. They've gone up two-and-a-half times. Now globally, about 2.2 million media mentions. I looked at Google search, the Google search around diversity, equity and inclusion has gone up. I don't think consumer interest has diminished at all. Yes it's true that, during COVID, we focused more on our own health and our own future, but diversity, equity and inclusion is still a very important issue.
The key element to that is that it's a lot harder for CEOs to navigate that in a way that doesn't alienate their key audiences. As we were sharing before, the Fortune article in January said that most CEOs recognize that they have to speak out on important issues, but 26% of them have absolutely no plan. The question is then, how do you have a plan to talk about those kinds of issues?
I would say the first part of that starts with listening to the most important people, and they're not necessarily the people on social media, they're the people closest to you. It's your employees and how you treat your employees is one of the number one indicators of how your company is seen. It's as important as your products and services. About listening to your board, listening to your customers. To be honest, you can't wait for a crisis to find out where your values are. You need to set a north star and say, "These are the red lines. This is what we will stand for, and this is what our customers value, and this is what we're going to take a stand on." Actually, most companies do have an ongoing commitment to sustainability, DE&I, and so on, and it hasn't diminished. Yes, they're talking less about it but I don't see it diminishing at all. What they don't know is how to talk about it.
Carrie Fox:
We talk about this a lot on the show, actually. I'm a communicator, but I don't say talk first. It is so much more important to be in the work, to be doing the work, to be working through and navigating the work. Then sure, yes we can talk about the work. But just doing the work is the most important part.
Laurence Evans:
There was a fascinating piece of research we just did in February. It speaks to the wisdom of the crowd, the wisdom of the everyday American, which I just love. We asked 1000 Americans a question, "How should business CEOs respond to various issues?" This is what they said. CEOs should speak to environmental issues. They should refrain from taking sides on geopolitical issues. And they should speak to social issues that relate to their companies values.
I thought the wisdom of that was everyone can talk about the environment, particularly if you're doing something and you should be doing sometimes. You should be cautious when taking sides on politically divisive issues, understandably, because they are complex, and they're hard to explain. But when it comes to issues that relate to your company's values, you should speak out because if it relates to your product, to your industry and your values, you are credible. You are the voice that people will listen to and take notice of so that's where you can speak out. I think when companies speak out and it speaks to something their product is doing, or their category is doing, I think it's incredibly powerful.
I'll give you two examples. This year, for example, we helped a global oral care brand do a study around the impact of disabilities and oral health. Clearly related to their core product. We've helped a global diaper brand do a study around what kind of support do parents of premature children have or get and why is that lacking, because one in 10 children worldwide are born premature. It's the leading cause of death. It's not enough just to support the baby in the hospital. What happens when they go home? The parents feel totally at sea. We addressed that. We've taken on some issues, as directly related to their brand.
Coming back to your question on DE&I, I think part of the challenge is, as communicators, we have to relate it back to business issues. I actually believe that diversity is good for business. Why do I believe that? There's a number of good reasons. One is it's opening up new markets you don't have. If you're in financial services, there are underserved markets that are under-banked, et cetera, selling credit cards. You should represent, in your employee base, the communities and customers that you serve, so that's a very good argument for it. You should realize that, if you have the proper mix of people from different backgrounds, and that's not just race or color but diverse backgrounds, you actually end up with different perspectives that end up with better results and better decision making. That's really well proven.
But the challenge is that we rush into the emotional side of it and we don't actually say, "You know what, there's a very good reason why we're doing this. It's just good for business." Because we're making sure that our employees reflect the customers we serve, and that we're making the best decisions for business. When you put things in that terms, then you speak with the right to say, "There's a good reason for doing this. There's a good rationale for this."
Carrie Fox:
Right. That was a wonderful breakdown. I'm going to make sure that that gets broken down right in the show notes, because I think that is a question that folks ask so much. "How do I navigate this time in DEI? Do I need to turn off these programs or do I need to completely reimagine them?" To your point, no, not at all. But perhaps, in some cases, what we've seen is organizations have communicated in a way that forgets, in fact, why they're doing it. They're promoting the idea of it so much, rather than being really focused on the root possibility of that work.
Laurence Evans:
Yeah. I think there is a case for equity and justice. That people get more upset about the way things are done often, than what is done.
Carrie Fox:
Right.
Laurence Evans:
Part of the problem is that DE&I is often seen as favoritism, or a pet project, or something that only applies to some people or not on others. It's really important, in all these cases, that it's very clear to be transparent and seen to be a fair process.
Carrie Fox:
Right.
Laurence Evans:
There's a rationale for it, the rules are open. You're clear and communicated why decisions were made, why a certain person was promoted and why they weren't promoted, et cetera. People may not like it, but at least it's clear and consistent, and you communicated the why behind the what.
Carrie Fox:
What I'm hearing you say, and I'm seeing this in some other research we had talked about earlier, is DEI remains a priority. Now it may not be the top priority. We see AI stepping into that seat. But I heard you, actually read your words not too long ago, in Carol's annual Purpose Collaborative article, talking about ESG. ESG is interesting, that not too long ago, it was a top priority. Now it's fallen down to less than 10% see that as their top priority.
You said something so powerful. You said, "Every major public company in 2024 should expect to have to measure and report on carbon footprint and emissions progress." Let's talk more about that. Is it possible? Are we going in that direction?
Laurence Evans:
Well, possible, I think it's a regulatory necessity. Starting in Europe for example, 2024 will be the first year that the Corporate European Standards of Sustainability will be mandatory for every publicly listed company to report. It's not a choice. The ECC is moving in a similar direction.
But what's encouraging to me, as I went back to an organization called GRI, which is the Global Reporting Initiative. Back in 2011, over a decade ago, only one of five members of the S&P 500 companies were actually reporting on sustainability or corporate responsibility. Today, 98% are. Every company's doing it. Half of the Russell 1000 are doing it. The question is not do you report on sustainability, the question is how and to what standards? The rise of different standards, like SASB and GRI is making it easier to at least say well, at least now we're coalescing around what those standards of reporting should be. The answer is yes, if you're not on that program, you should be. You should make yourself familiar with that. There's some wonderful resources, which you can post on your show afterwards.
The more interesting thing about ESG is, again, we put it to the vote. In November last year, we asked Americans, "If a company's doing the right thing, whether it's in the social environment, whether it's the governance, or whether it's in the E, S or G, how would you vote, what's most important?" For the second year running, we heard the same thing. It's people before planet. In a world where there's a lot of need and there's a lot of humanitarian crisis, and there's a lot of conflict, people are coming back to you know what, we do need to put people first.
It's actually the S in the ES&G that's the fastest rising part of that, and that comes down to basics. It comes down to treating your employees well. It comes down to how you treat your customers, in terms of the service you give them. It comes down to, to your point, the integrity of how you act. It comes down to how you serve your community. That, on the S side, is actually very, very fruitful because there's a lot that companies are doing that they're not communicating about.
On the environment side, I think the balance has tipped now where it's almost a must do. It's such a housekeeping issue that you need to be not only doing something, you need to be showing that you're doing something. The biggest frustration that people are having is that a lot of companies have set these wonderful 2030 or 2050 goals around net-zero, but they're not talking about what they're going to do this year, next year and the year afterwards. It's this gap between short and medium term goals, and longterm goals, where the credibility gap is. That's what I was really referring to in that article. You actually need to give people some short term actions that you're taking to really show them that you're making progress.
But there's one more insight, which I found fascinating. That was we asked consumers what companies should do on the environment. They don't expect business to solve the planet problems. They don't expect them to solve climate change. That's a big, global government, citizen deal. What they do expect is when they say that they're going to make a commitment that they follow up on it. My aha moment was make smaller, more concrete promises about the environment that directly relate to your product, to your community, to your people. Make it concrete, make it tangible, make it smaller and deliver on that, and again get the credibility. You're not expected to solve the world, you are expected to make sure that your product does no harm, that you're not polluting. That you've addressed the plastics issue. That you're recycling as much as you can. Just take care of your own house, basically is what they were saying. That makes imminent sense.
Carrie Fox:
Right.
Laurence Evans:
Because no one's thinking about 2030, they're thinking about 2024. What are you doing now?
Carrie Fox:
Doing it right now. Right. That is such an important, important insight. Make smaller, concrete promises and deliver on them. Some of the stories you shared earlier, and I am sure many of the organizations you work with now, I'm curious if there's any other stories of companies who do that well, who say they're going to do something and they take it bit by bit, and they report out on it along the way. Do you see someone whose doing that well?
Laurence Evans:
The standouts to me are people like Patagonia, who [inaudible 00:24:16] business, and the clothing and the product that they do. I think companies like PepsiCo are doing it well, I think Unilever's doing it well. I think Nestle's doing it well. Some of the big multinational companies are genuinely trying to make efforts in their area for the right reasons. Not just about the things that we would think about, which is pollution and climate change, but actually around things like food security, or health and wellbeing, or mental health and other things. Taking a broader definition of societal benefit and focusing on what difference can we make.
Yes, I think there are quite a number of companies that are doing it and doing it well, but they're doing it thoughtfully relative to what contribution does our category make.
Carrie Fox:
Right. Bit by bit, day by day, chipping away the the big vision, versus focusing too big on the big, bold goal.
We are already coming to the end of this show, Laurence. It went really fast. I want to give you a minute first, or more, on is there anything we didn't get to? Any of the research that you've been having your hands in recently that we should bring into the conversation?
Laurence Evans:
We asked, in the end of last year, what social actions US organizations should be doing more of in 2024. 43% said, "Do what you promised." 36% said, "Improve your own employees wellbeing and mental health." And 35% said, "Pay your taxes."
But the second one's quite interesting, which is all about actually focusing back on wellbeing and mental health. I do think that is an increasing trend and one that companies are paying more attention to. Naturally, because people are your greatest resource. Mental health is a huge issue. It's a huge issue here in the UK, where I'm based. It's a big issue everywhere in the Western world, but one that we can't ignore. As this world gets more stressful and divisive, companies are a place that people will look for for support, and advice, and counsel. It should be a safe and secure place, and a good place to work.
Carrie Fox:
Including Reputation Leaders. I saw your post not too long ago, about health for all. I'm speaking about the World Health Organization and some of the work that you all do there, at Reputation Leaders.
Laurence Evans:
We love doing thought leadership that helps companies take on big issues and actually make a difference, and to talk about it. And to lead really, because this is all about leadership. It's about not just being part of the pack, it's about positioning yourself as a company that is a leader and has something to say, and then people want to work for you. The biggest benefit of purpose is very simple. The younger generation want meaningful work for companies that are doing good. They will sacrifice a lot of things to work for companies like that.
Carrie Fox:
You have shared so much wisdom with us today. I said at the top, your superpower is seeing things that others don't as you make sense of the data.
As we wrap up, Laurence, I'm curious if there's something that's giving you hope or optimism, in the data or otherwise, that you want to share as our closing thought?
Laurence Evans:
It's easy to give the next generation a bad rap, but I actually think that the generation that's coming, that particularly the Gen Z, the Gen Alpha, are probably the most entrepreneurial generation we've ever seen. They're certainly the most digital. They're also, rightfully, the most concerned about climate change. While the immediate risks to the world tend to be geopolitical, the longer term risks are climate change. The fact that young people are thinking about that, and they're making life choices and employment choices around that, I think is a very positive thing.
Carrie Fox:
Well, thank you. Thank you so much for this time and the insights today, and for giving us a lot of stuff to think about.
Laurence Evans:
Thank you.
Carrie Fox:
Oh my goodness, so many good things that are coming out of that conversation with Laurence today. From his insights, "the wisdom of the crowd," as he said, to really understanding that the best way to make a longterm, meaningful impact is actually to start with the smaller, concrete promises and then see them through. There's going to be so many links that we share with you after the show. You can head over to the website and pull them up on the show notes. But just remember this, as he shared with us, that there is always, every day, something you can do in service of purpose, moving the work forward, but don't forget who matters most. People. Thanks again for listening today. We'll see you next time on the Mission Forward Podcast.
That brings us to the end of another episode of Mission Forward. If you liked what you heard today, I hope you'll stop right now and give the show a five-star rating wherever you are listening to this podcast. Maybe even forward it to a friend who you think would enjoy today's conversation. Of course, check out the show notes for all of the links referenced in today's show. Mission Forward is produced with the support and wisdom of Pete Wright and the TruStory production team, as well as the wonderful Sadie Lockhart of Mission Partners. You can learn more about our work over at missionforward.us. Of course, reach out to me any time at carrie@mission.partners. Thanks for tuning in today, friend, and I'll see you next time.
