Rebroadcast • Human-Centered AI in the Workplace with SHRM’s George Rivera
About This Episode
In this week’s rebroadcast from Season 8, we ask an important question: How should your organization thoughtfully adopt artificial intelligence (AI) in ways that enhance instead of displace the human workforce? Carrie sits down with SHRM’s George Rivera, a person uniquely qualified to take on these questions as we look out on the horizon toward the future of work.
“AI plus HI equals ROI,” says George Rivera, Senior Vice President of SHRM Enterprise Solutions, "The magic lies in working together. And, frankly, it's not just us that believe it. If you really look back at any of the AI advancements we've had over the last 20 or 30 years, that concept has always shined through."
Rivera stresses the importance of aligning an organization's AI strategy with its culture. Rather than wholesale technology replacement of workers, Rivera advocates an "augmented intelligence" approach where AI supplements and supports employees. "We believe every organization has a unique culture to them and so each organization has to determine how AI is going to play and should play a role within that culture."
Key themes discussed in this wide-ranging conversation include using AI ethically, with Rivera noting the risk of perpetuating bias and emphasizing customizing implementation around an organization's unique culture. Rivera also talks about how AI can increase productivity and strengthen relationships by streamlining tedious tasks and providing insights into employee engagement. Additionally, he covers how AI can reinforce skills training and institutional knowledge, acting as a tool to augment human intelligence.
Rivera shares valuable perspective on both the promise and pitfalls of workplace AI. He advocates thoughtful adoption focused on enhancing human potential. Organizations must approach AI as a tool, not a panacea, and remain vigilant about its risks. "Ultimately, we find that it's important for organizations to be good stewards of their capital and make sure that they're getting the best impact or the best out of their employees that they possibly can."
This is just part one of Carrie’s conversation with George Rivera. Our great thanks to him, and the SHRM team, for making this set of conversations possible.
Sponsor: SHRM
SHRM provides solutions for 95% of Fortune 500 companies to transform talent management, accelerate executive development, elevate workplace culture, and build inclusive workplaces. SHRM promotes diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging while advancing women leaders to construct better workplaces. Mission Partners routinely consults SHRM first when facing HR and best practice challenges and we're thrilled to be able to work with SHRM as the sponsor of this week's episode. Learn more at SHRM.org.
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Speaker 1:
Did you get that?
Speaker 2:
Did you get that?
Speaker 3:
Did you get that?
Speaker 4:
Did you get that?
Speaker 5:
Welcome to Mission Forward.
Carrie Fox:
Today's episode is brought to you by SHRM. You heard me, S-H-R-M, SHRM. There's a reason that 95% of Fortune 500 companies turn to SHRM. From elevating workplace culture and talent management to accelerating the performance and development of their executives, SHRM has a full suite of solutions to transform the way you work. I really admire their driving principles, promoting women in leadership, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, and ultimately building better workplaces for a better world. I'll tell you honestly, every time that we have a question over at Mission Partners tied to HR and best practices, the first place we go, you got it, shrm.org. So for listeners tuning in, SHRM is the perfect partner to help solve business challenges keeping you up at night. Learn more at shrm.org. And now back to the show.
Hi there and welcome to the Mission Forward podcast, where each week we bring you a thought-provoking and perspective shifting conversation on the power of communication. I'm Carrie Fox, your host and CEO of Mission Partners, a social impact communications firm and certified B-corporation. Today, we are inviting you to join us for the start of a very special two-part conversation. You heard that, two parts with George Rivera, Senior Vice President of SHRM Enterprise Solutions. George has over 15 years of experience building and scaling highly productive results-driven organizations and he recognizes that strong leaders build strong businesses and strong businesses build strong communities. I mean, need I say any more about why I wanted George this season?
There are two conversations I felt were essential to this season, AI and workplace best practices and, as I was lucky to learn, George is an expert on both. So this week, George and I are going to take on the topic of AI in the workplace. We're going to focus on AI as a tool to supplement the workforce, not replace it. And then, next up, we're going to focus on some pretty important workplace trends versus getting caught up in some of today's workplace fads. So stay tuned for that conversation. But today, we've got AI on the mind and, George, thank you so much for joining us.
George Rivera:
Thank you for having me.
Carrie Fox:
So George, I'm going to just throw a first open question as we get into today's conversation, tell us a little bit about your journey to SHRM and why this work is so important to you.
George Rivera:
Yeah, I'd love to. We all have different paths that bring us to where we end up and where our careers start to thrive, but for me, it wasn't found in high school or college or any of maybe those other traditional times in which you find yourself. But, for me, it really happened in the workplace. I was lucky enough throughout my career to work for some really incredible people who really invested in me. And so I really early on in my career valued the power of mentorship and having great people who are really willing to just take time out of their own life and invest in you. And so, because of that, I feel like I have a duty, a mission, if you will, to work within the workplace to help make the workplace better.
And so I've spent most of my career in the human capital management space advising HR leaders on how to build more thriving organizations. And when the opportunity came about three years ago to join SHRM and be part of the place that focuses on all things work that has at the core of its center work, worker, and the workplace, I couldn't pass it up.
Carrie Fox:
George, you and I have something very important in common, which is those mentors. And I was just commenting to someone the other day that my first boss when I moved to Washington, I was in my early 20s, is still my greatest teacher and mentor. I worked for him for many years. He actually then joined me in business and we were just together on a work trip last week. So there is nothing like that value of mentorship and, to your point, then that stewardship of passing along what we learn to others.
George Rivera:
Yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a lot of different ways we can gain experience and gain education, but just that one-on-one conversation with people who have been in the role and have done the things and walked the path that you're looking to walk for me has been hugely impactful. And really all the decisions I've made from a career progression standpoint haven't been because of the job or the potential earnings or things like that. It's really been, who do I get to work for and who do I get to work with? And so I think if we put more of a focus as individuals, which we'll talk a little bit today I'm sure in the AI conversation, but if we put more focus as individuals on how we learn and developing the skill sets we need for the future, we're more likely to build and curate the careers we've been dreaming of.
Carrie Fox:
Well, that was the perfect story to get into this because if we think about some of those keywords you just said, human potential, human connection, these things do not come out of artificial intelligence. It's that importance of building the human intelligence. And so I'm curious if you can tell us a little bit, because SHRM has been doing quite a bit of research and learning and insight on AI in the workplace, start big and then we're going to zero in. What are you seeing that feels important to focus us today in this conversation?
George Rivera:
AI right now is as hot as it gets. We know that organizations right now, at least the smart forward-thinking organizations are trying to get ahead of what AI will be, not today, but five, 10 years down the road and making sure that organizationally that it's in alignment with their culture. We believe every organization has a unique culture to them and so each organization has to determine how AI is going to play and should play a role within that culture. And so, from a SHRM perspective, the reason why we really care about it is what I said earlier. We are all things work, worker, and the workplace, and if there's three areas that are going to be drastically disrupted by AI and impacted by AI, it really is all three of those. The work itself is going to change.
The way we do work, how that work gets done is all going to change. The worker itself is going to change. There's a need for up-skilling and re-skilling of many of the roles that we have today. And then, lastly, the workplace. We've already seen AI make an impact on the workplace and the technology that's around us and the safety within our workplace. And so, as the thought leader in that space, we want to make sure that we are providing HR practitioners as well as all of our other members the information they need to be most successful as we go through this industrial revolution.
Carrie Fox:
It's so interesting, George, because AI is not new. We've been having conversations and using AI technology for years now. It's that AI is at this really interesting tipping point and perhaps in part it's related to coming out of COVID and challenging workplace norms. I think about your own Johnny Taylor's book and the reset that's happening in the workplace. But what's so interesting, and I hope we can get into today, is that there is a case of extremes that I feel like I'm seeing, that there are those folks who say, "Let's dive in wholeheartedly and turn to AI as a way to scale our workplace, even if that means reducing actually our workforce." And there's the other side that says, "I'm terrified of this technology because it could potentially take my job."
And so how we meet in the middle and think about what I've heard you all say, which is, and I've heard others say this too, that artificial intelligence can be a tool to support human performance. One of my colleagues said to me recently, she's a graphic designer, she said, "Designers won't be replaced by AI. They will be replaced by designers using AI."
George Rivera:
Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I mean, I think about that in really all roles and, throughout time, every industrial revolution, every technological big advance, we've had these opportunities to re-skill our workforce and our workforce every single time has found a way to re-skill. And I don't believe that this one's going to be any different. I think we have the opportunity right now to start being more thoughtful because we know it's coming. The large language models that have made AI so now accessible have spurred on this conversation. But we're still several years away from AI being the big disruptor that we think it's going to be. The large language models, the ChatGPTs of the world, have just put it at our fingertips. And so now as users, when my 82-year-old father tells me that he ChatGPT'd something and they gave him the wrong Yankees information, it's proof that now it's because of the democratization of that technology that now anybody can start to think about it. And once we start to think about it and play with it, we have the next logical step is, how will this affect me?
And so I think that's what we're seeing right now, is it's becoming part of pop culture, which is a great thing because it's going to get people to start being thoughtful around it. Now it's our job to make sure that at least HR organizations or organizations as a whole are thinking through how it's going to affect the worker. Because most of the other times when we've had these technological advances, the worker was an afterthought. The worker was, "Well, we deployed this great new factory line. Now what?" And for probably one of the first times ever we get to say we're a couple of years out from this. What skills do we need in our workplace in order to be most competitive, most effective, and most successful?
Carrie Fox:
I laugh when you talk about the Yankees information, but that's a big piece of AI too, is making sure that we're being fed accurate information and as these tools continue to improve and grow that they are in fact supporting the worker and the workplace. I'd love you maybe to tell me a little bit about this research you've been doing or as you're diving into to understand what elements of AI feel most important to hang onto in this moment.
George Rivera:
Absolutely. So there's really three key areas that we're seeing from an HR standpoint. The workplace overall has some bigger things to think about, but from an HR standpoint, HR departments are thinking through a handful of things that are really important. Number one is recruitment and hiring. And so, what role does AI play in that recruitment and hiring process? L&D departments are really the next big group that are starting to figure out how AI can augment the L&D curriculum. And then lastly is performance management. So it's fascinating. You'd actually be surprised at how much utilization already occurs within organizations from an AI standpoint.
We found in our research that 79% of recruiting and hiring departments are using some form of AI to augment their decision-making process, and that could be everything from applicant screening or resume screening, so there's not a human reading every single one of those, all the way into mock interviews that are done via Zoom like this and the AI is giving feedback whether or not that person would be a correct fit, to things like personality assessments and the ability to score the way people answer certain questions in order to decide, at least for the AI to decide, if they should receive that role or not.
And then the last area is performance management. So performance management is really all three of these, I'll say. So recruiting and hiring, learning and development, and performance management, they're all hugely important and they're all subjective. And so as you think through all of those, it's a very human decision that is in the middle of all of it. Whether it's who I want to hire or how I want to put a learning program in place for somebody, or how I want to write a performance review, they're all very me-centric. And so AI gives us the ability to potentially remove some of the biases that exist in all three of those categories and give ourself the opportunity to have maybe the best candidate, the best learning experience, and the best performance review or performance management discussion we can.
Carrie Fox:
So I love that you've used the word potentially in there, because I know how much work you all do on issues of equity, diversity, and inclusion. And so there's one side, again, that says AI could really build a lot of efficiencies. And on the other side it says, how do we build it in a way that it doesn't actually reinforce bias? So I don't know that SHRM goes to the level of saying, "Use this tool and not that one," but are there considerations that you suggest folks take to make sure that we are erring on the side of human informed AI rather than the artificial of the AI?
George Rivera:
Yeah, great point. So we certainly don't say, "Use this tool. Don't use this one." We try to be technology-agnostic, but what we do is try to create best practices and thinking around how an organization should process through these. The first thing I'd say is, I referenced it earlier, is every organization has their unique culture and so it's important that an organization builds their AI roadmap in alignment with their culture roadmap. And for a lot of organizations, they may not even have a culture roadmap, that may be a foreign concept, but it's something that we believe that all organizations should have. Where are you going culturally? You probably know where you're going from a business standpoint, you know what your CAGR is and the growth that you need in order to achieve your financials for your board or your VC firm, but, culturally, where do you want to take this organization?
And so, from that, I think the AI conversation goes directly in alignment with that. And so, as an org, what kind of AI are we accepting within our culture? Because within any of these tools, there is the risk of biases and there's just risk that goes along with it. And so we're hopeful that organizations can start thinking about AI in alignment with culture. Beyond that, some of the other things that we suggest organizations think through is where a person can be augmented versus where a person can be replaced. Not to say that there's not going to be spots in which that happens, but as we're in the infancy of this technology, it's important that I think we operate hand in hand with our machine partners, our robotic friends, if you will.
And so I think you said it earlier, which is this idea of augmented intelligence. And I really love that concept, and Johnny says it slightly different, but he says, "AI plus HI equals ROI," meaning artificial intelligence plus human intelligence equals organizational return on investment. And so for those reasons, we really believe that the magic lies in working together. And, frankly, it's not just us that believes it. If you really look back at any of the AI advancements we've had over the last 20 or 30 years, that concept has always shined through. The first time that AI beat a grand champion chess master, the world thought it was over and AI has now taken over, they've become so actualized that they are the smartest beings in the world, right? However, that AI ended up getting beaten. Do you know how?
Carrie Fox:
No.
George Rivera:
Well, it got beaten by the machine model working next to a human working next to another [inaudible 00:15:32]. And then that model was defeated. And so we have so many examples of HI, human intelligence, working next to artificial intelligence to create out-sized impact. And I think that's where we're going to be for the next several decades.
Carrie Fox:
Right. Right. Reminds you of Ken Jennings in Jeopardy in, that you know what, ultimately, Ken Jennings won because he's now the host of Jeopardy.
George Rivera:
That's right.
Carrie Fox:
So you just replace the human.
George Rivera:
That's right.
Carrie Fox:
So SHRM has a really interesting take. I hope we can dive into each of these if just for a minute or two, but four ways companies can benefit from AI. One, improving productivity, two, enhancing relationships, three, augmenting intelligence, and, four, winning the war on big data analytics. Let's break those down. So whether you want to tell me a story or give me an insight, talk to me about why these are the four ways you see companies being able to benefit most. And I'll just toss them to you. So improving productivity, how are you seeing that being done?
George Rivera:
Absolutely. I think smart organizations right now, look, we work with hundreds and, really, thousands of organizations at this point, and there is a war for productivity and that balance between the employee's balance or interests and what needs to be done from a workforce perspective. And so AI is allowing us to do two things that I think are both really important. Number one is take away some of the tactical non-strategic work that individuals have to do. Obviously, there's examples like in coding and technology. There's also examples in tasks like in HR functions and those things that a human currently has to do that could be replaced. Scheduling and simple things that could be replaced. And so I think that's one side of productivity.
The other side of productivity is the productivity tracking, which I think sometimes gets a bad rap. Ultimately, we find that it's important for organizations to be good stewards of their capital and make sure that they're getting the best impact or the best out of their employees that they possibly can. And so by using some of these productivities, these AI enhanced productivity tools, we now have the opportunity to find problems with an employee's performance earlier on and then build plans to try to fix that before it gets so far gone that, that employee can no longer be a part of the organization.
Carrie Fox:
All right, so that probably leads us into the next one then, is how we then use it to enhance the relationships we have with our employees and customers.
George Rivera:
So the big trend is employee listening. And I think most organizations, if you've worked for a company, you've had some sort of engagement survey. That's a very awkward moment in time. People in their normal relationships, I don't go to any of my best friends and say, "I'd love to hear your sentiment on how we're doing as a friend right now." It's not really how we operate as people, but you can get a gist of how we're operating as people or how we're operating as friends in the way we interact and the way we talk and the frequency in which we talk. Well, AI is going to be able to provide or already has the ability to provide a lot of that data to us where we can understand how an employee is feeling without ever asking them the question, how are you feeling today? Are you engaged in your work?
And so that to me is going to be really huge when you think about the ways we communicate and Slack and other tools, email and the way in which we communicate within the workforce, all of that information is going to be hugely impactful to making sure that people feel like they belong, that they're included in the organization, and that they have a home that they can really grow in. And if they're not, that's where smart HR departments have the ability to then run programs that can help supplement that and make sure that people feel connected to their workplace to hopefully get a thriving and growing employee for years to come.
Carrie Fox:
Amazing. So you are really leaning into the human intelligence side of enhancing relationships, which sets us up to number three, we've talked about this probably the most so far, but augmenting intelligence. What would you add there?
George Rivera:
Yeah, so there's so many roles that this one to me is probably the most intuitive. What are the things that I would be better at with a partner? And one of the things that comes to mind for me is learning. And so when we think about the billions of dollars that organizations put forward in learning programs, training their people how to do something or a new leadership development program, billions and really pushing on trillions of dollars are being spent in this realm of learning yet we know that all the research shows that retention of that learning is exceptionally low. Some studies as low as 8% retention after a 90-day span.
And so, when you think about that, and it's probably not that different from our education system either, when we think about that, to me that's a huge opportunity. And so the way that AI is going to be used in order to anchor that learning, to reinforce that learning, to practice that learning thereafter in a safe environment that maybe isn't the same as having a crucial conversation with an employee where you can practice it with a bot beforehand and get real feedback and real development to anchor that learning and make you a better leader, a better employee, a better technician at whatever it is you do.
Carrie Fox:
Break that down for me one layer further. Am I hearing that the idea of learning is and should remain strong when it's human to human learning, but AI can help to reinforce and supplement that learning by the way you practice what you're learning?
George Rivera:
Absolutely. There's phenomenal learning programs that exist out there that have been made by hyper intelligent curriculum designers that know the best way to deliver this content. But we still know that there's a whole whirlwind of ideas and thoughts and things that are going on in our mind and we don't capture everything that we hear. We don't retain it all. And certainly as time goes by and each time we sleep and we get home and our kid runs and jumps on us and help them with their homework and we do all these other things that there is a deterioration of that learning. And so AI is going to play a huge role in making sure that learning gets anchored and we start creating cultures of practice within our workforces and eventually we get to the point where those retention scores go up drastically and we start getting the ROI out of those really expensive learning programs that we invest in as organizations.
Carrie Fox:
Cool. That's a very cool insight. All right, last one, winning the war on big data analytics.
George Rivera:
Yeah. I mean, look, that's a buzzword trend, big data analytics. That's something you hear on investor calls to make sure that everyone knows you're doing what you're supposed to do, but what does that really mean? And I think, to me, there's a treasure trove of data that every organization has no matter how big or how small you are. The first one, since we're SHRM and we represent HR, I'll say is your employee data. There's so much information in your employee data that just goes in a filing cabinet somewhere and never comes out until their termination time. And so, how could we be leveraging that employee data? I don't just mean what they fill out when they get there, but, really, all of their interactions, how they feel, what they're doing, how they're learning, how they're developing. Those employees, if you thought of them like customers, you'll be harnessing that and building programs to help get the most out of them.
Secondly, moving over to customers. I think all companies, no matter what you do, you have a customer and there's customer data that goes with that. And so better understanding and centricity for that customer I think is hugely impactful and we're seeing all the smartest organizations making sure to put a focus around that. And the last area that I think the data is sitting there ready to be leveraged for something greater is with our own business data. What are our trends? How are we performing as a company? And what are the ways that we could be augmenting this performance in order to create a greater outcome?
Carrie Fox:
Well, George, my very human friend, George, we are coming to the end of the first conversation already. And what you're leaving me with and the listeners is there is quite a lot of opportunity in AI, but we really need to be thinking eyes wide open about the effect of the technology and how it best works, in your words, to support and enhance human productivity and human potential. One last thing before we wrap up the show. This is part of a series that we're doing that's really tied, very focused to the issues that are keeping leaders up at night. And we know that, that is a topic you are taking on every day. So what do you want to leave this audience with? Is there a call to action? Is there an invitation? Is there a website you want to drive them to that can help keep this learning going?
George Rivera:
Absolutely. Well, I'll always plug shrm.org. I think it's a phenomenal website for all people that care about the workplace in general. We put out incredible content and incredible thought leadership and research that everyone should consume. But whenever I get excited about a new concept, which AI would be one that I feel pretty passionate about right now, I always find myself doing the easiest possible research you can. And, for me, that's movies. I love movies. And so over the last year maybe I have watched so many movies about AI and about the bringing on of this new technology, from Terminator to some of the happy ones. There's a phenomenal one with Melissa McCarthy, but actually the best movie I have seen in regards to how AI is going to impact the workplace is Hidden Figures. Do you remember that movie, Carrie?
Carrie Fox:
Sure. Yes.
George Rivera:
So there's this scene in Hidden Figures. When I saw it, and I'll be honest, I just was watching it to watch it, I wasn't doing research at the time, but when I heard a couple of lines in there, it just hit me like a ton of bricks about how relevant that is right now. And so Dorothy Vaughn is the main character in the movie and she is this brilliant mathematician, and at the time they called her, they called that role a computer. So not the computers we know, but somebody that commutes numbers. At the same time, the IBM 7090 came into NASA and they've spent all this money on this phenomenal piece of technology. And there's this line in the movie where one of Dorothy's colleagues says, "This IBM thing is going to put us out of work. What can we do?" And Dorothy replied, which I just thought was so good, she said, "The only thing we can do, we learn all we can and we make ourselves invaluable."
And it's like, that's it, right? That's what's going to happen. That's what's happened in every other industrial revolution, every other technological revolution, and that's what has to happen now. So if you're in a role that you think could be displaced by AI, there's always going to be change, whether it's AI or something else, and so I think the best employees, the best workers, and really the people that I know are folks that will always find a way to up-skill themselves, to learn new skill sets, and build and curate the careers that they've always dreamt of.
Carrie Fox:
Well, we'll leave it there. Thank you, George, for your invaluable insights. Fantastic conversation. And stay tuned, friends, for part two of our conversation with George Rivera. Today's episode is brought to you by SHRM. You heard me, S-H-R-M, SHRM. There's a reason that 95% of Fortune 500 companies turn to SHRM. From elevating workplace culture and talent management to accelerating the performance and development of their executives, SHRM has a full suite of solutions to transform the way you work. I really admire their driving principles, promoting women in leadership, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, and ultimately building better workplaces for a better world. I'll tell you honestly, every time that we have a question over at Mission Partners tied to HR and best practices, the first place we go, you got it, shrm.org. So for listeners tuning in, SHRM is the perfect partner to help solve business challenges keeping you up at night. Learn more at shrm.org.
