Rebroadcast • Communicating Through Volatility with Hearken’s Jennifer Brandel and Mission Partners’ Brian Fox
About This Episode
It's election season. The air crackles – a strange cocktail of anticipation and apprehension. We’re drowning in pronouncements, predictions, and the ever-present din of commentary. But what if the key to navigating this volatile landscape isn’t about shouting louder but listening deeper?
On this episode of Mission Forward, we explore that very question with Jennifer Brandel, a process innovator and co-founder of Hearken. Hearken helps institutions truly hear their audiences. Brandel's background, spanning from NPR to the New York Times, gives her a unique vantage point. She’s not just a theorist; she’s wrestled with these challenges in both her professional and deeply personal life. Our host this week is our own Brian Fox, chief strategy officer at Mission Partners, a native at navigating volatile landscapes himself.
Together, they unpack the surprising power of curiosity and deep listening, especially when the stakes are high. Think of a surgeon in the operating room: skilled hands guided by intense focus and precise observation. Or a negotiator: not bulldozing, but listening, seeking the subtle cues that can de-escalate a challenging conversation. In the chaotic aftermath of a natural disaster, it's the quiet acts of empathy and connection that rebuild shattered communities.
So why, when it comes to the equally turbulent terrain of politics, do we so often resort to the verbal equivalent of a sledgehammer?
Brandel and Fox share how we can move beyond the echo chambers and engage in meaningful dialogue, even – perhaps especially – with those with whom we vehemently disagree. They explore the difference between listening to respond and listening to understand. They shine a light on the subtle art of “looping,” a technique that can transform heated debates into opportunities for genuine connection, and reveal how organizational values, when they’re more than just empty slogans, can serve as a compass in moments of uncertainty.
This isn’t just about surviving the election; it’s about building a more resilient, empathetic, and ultimately, more democratic society. Join us as we uncover the hidden power of listening in a world that desperately needs to hear.
Links & Notes
-
Breaking news.
Breaking news.
It's the year of the chatbot.
The latest setback for climate action.
The latest Supreme Court ruling.
In the latest Supreme Court ruling, the court is set to redefine.
Hey, everyone.
It's Keri Fox, host of the Mission Forward podcast.
And I have a particularly relevant conversation coming to you today.
This one from two folks that I really love.
And the first one being my husband and great business partner, Brian Fox, chief strategy officer of Mission Partners, who recently had a conversation with Jennifer Brandel at Harkin around the power of curiosity and deep listening.
And as we process where we are in this country following this week's presidential election, I think it may give you something to hold on to and something to practice.
Before that, I want to share with you a little excerpt of a piece I wrote earlier this week as we've been getting a lot of questions from folks on how to respond and what to say.
So before we get to that conversation with Brian and Jen, I'd love to share a couple thoughts.
This one called "What to Say."
So in Stoic philosophy, the most important practice is differentiating between what we can change and what we can't.
We can't always control what happens, but we can control how we respond.
The next president of the United States has been chosen.
Now you choose how to respond.
As you consider that response to your team, to your children, or to the public, if warranted, I invite you to consider this.
First, this is a devastating time for half of America.
And it would have been, regardless of who won.
While the results may not be as you had hoped, here's what we know.
The democratic process worked as it should.
Nationwide, we once again experienced a free, fair, and safe election process.
That incredible feature of our democracy should not be lost on us today.
Consider a few other considerations as you choose how to respond.
First, choose to respond with empathy.
The democratic process is not perfect, but this week we saw it work as intended.
Remember that in many parts of the world, the power to choose a leader is not even an option.
We may not agree on who is best to lead our country, but we can choose to find common ground with one another.
Then choose to respond with peace.
As Dr.
John Paul Lederach shared recently on this podcast, the antidote to escalating tensions lies not in grand pronouncements, but in the quiet power of human connection.
Stay engaged even when the path forward seems uncertain.
Choose to listen before you respond.
Beyond those political commentators and pundits, listen to understand how those around you are doing.
Check in with them, because emotions will be mixed and you will engage with more than one person today and this week and for the days that follow who did not vote like you.
So remember, we are connected by many things other than politics.
Look for those commonalities.
And finally, choose to move forward.
As Yogi Berra believed, we can move forward regardless of the direction.
Your values won't change with the selection of the US president.
Rather, the outcome may require that you live your values more explicitly as you lead your team forward.
There is no going back, but you can and will move forward from here.
Finally, just take a deep breath and remember what you say and do following this presidential election and any presidential election matters.
Be careful not to hypothesize about what may happen next and instead work to promote calm, a commitment to your mission and values, and a willingness to rise from this together.
Remember, we can always choose to move forward.
And with that, let me introduce Brian and Jen for a terrific and meaningful conversation on curiosity and the power of deep listening.
I'm Brian Fox.
I'm chief strategy officer at Mission Partners and I'll be your guide for this next conversation and it's going to be a good one.
Our next guest is Jennifer Brandel.
In 2015, Jen helped to found Harken, which is an organization dedicated to helping institutions better listen and respond to their key audiences.
Prior to Harken, Jen worked as an award-winning journalist, having reported for NPR, CBC, WBEZ, the New York Times, and vice.
Jen is an accomplished process innovator and some of her creations have spawned new practices, new units within organizations and new organizations themselves.
And most importantly though, and the thing that perhaps most equips Jen to be with us here today on the topic of volatility and communicating through it, Jen is an incredibly dedicated and amazing parent.
Welcome, Jen.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for being with us for the lab and I thought maybe we just get right to it.
Let's do it.
All right.
Well, the topic is, you know, communicating through volatility.
I thought, geez, maybe a good place to start is with some curiosity around what do you think about volatility?
What comes to mind for you when you think about volatility in a professional or personal context and specifically the need to communicate through it?
Yeah.
Well, I don't know about everybody else here, but it feels like we've entered into an era in human history where volatility is more the norm than the exception to the rule.
And I feel like it's sometimes hard to wrap your head around because we're taught and kind of raised toward some goal of stability, even if it's an illusion, like you get a good job and a loving partnership and you have a good place to live and then you can plan ahead.
I think younger generations really know that that's no longer the state of the world or the case for their future.
So I think a lot about how to support and prepare the next generation in the work that I do and also on a personal front.
I'm raising a three-year-old who was diagnosed with cancer earlier this year, leukemia.
Luckily, she has a really good prognosis, but if that's not volatility, I don't know what is.
So me and my husband were, of course, like shocked and panicked and we've learned a lot in the intervening months about being nimble and about holding things lightly in moments of volatility.
And actually some of the lessons I come back to are what I've learned at the hospital, the children's hospital.
Like if you think about communicating through volatility, like who is more practiced in that than staff members, doctors, medical people who need to communicate really hard things to both parents and children about really hard topics.
And so one of the things I think about is the importance of honesty and not sugarcoating anything when things are volatile.
I've heard the phrase before, clarity is kindness, and I really believe it.
And the doctor who broke the news to my husband and I at like 3 a.m. when we were waiting for test results, he just said straight up, "We're going to be very direct and tell you everything we know about medications, outcomes, side effects, so you can make the best decisions for your family.
We're not here to try and make you feel better because that's not the goal here.
It's for you to feel empowered."
And in a way that immediately put my mind at ease because I felt I could trust him to tell me and not keep anything from me that I should be worried about.
Like he told me what I should be worried about.
And they've been just extremely informative going through this.
And also just very thoughtful about how much information you give someone at any given time, how much can they handle.
There is a lot of volatility happening at work or in the world.
Do you lay it all on or do you kind of stage it out for when people can actually process parts of it?
You know, the shock of an initial thing that has changed versus the like, what's the reaction?
You can't have this happen immediately.
You need to have some spaciousness there.
And also just I've learned how important it is to be really responsive to questions and to have space for them, make space for those.
And yeah, I mean, I have so much more to say about the hospital experience and what we've learned, but that's a start.
Thank you for sharing that perspective on the personal side.
You know, what struck me when you were sharing that as sort of the honesty aspect that was helpful in that volatility, it seems.
And I wonder if I could almost pivot a little bit into listening.
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
And sort of this idea of the power of listening.
And when I think of you and your work, you know, I think of you almost as like a master listener actually.
You've built incredibly successful organizations, I would say a set of organizations on the belief and recognition that curiosity and listening are the foundation of a stronger society and healthier democracy even.
And I'm just wondering as much as I so appreciate that honesty dimension that you talked about, but can you share with us maybe a little bit to the leaders in the room what you think and how they can maybe better harness the power of deep listening to help manage through moments of volatility?
It's a big question.
And really listening, I feel like we're at the 101 stage as a society.
I feel like, you know, we all think we know how to listen, but really we can hear.
And active listening is actually a very different and cultivated practice that we're not born knowing how to do.
We really have to practice it like anything you want to get really great at.
And I think there's a really strong correlation between the best listeners and the best leaders.
And if you think about it, you know, people will only tell you as much as they think you care about because why waste your time if like your boss or colleague hasn't shown interest or that they're willing to make the time and space and attention to like really process your needs.
So if you're not creating the space to show up and you're not creating the capacity within yourself to listen, you're going to get far less information as a leader than you could if people knew that they could come to you with things that were concerns or ideas or anything in between.
And so if you're not great at listening, you're going to make more decisions from a place of ignorance, which is not good.
So to me, like deep listening has to be involved.
And to do that, you need to minimize distractions that could be in your virtual lives, closing down all the tabs, putting things away.
You need to minimize the back channels in your own brain.
You don't know how you minimize the tabs in your brain.
And I often keep a notebook next to me just to write down all the random things that come to mind that are distracting me from a conversation so I can check those off later.
And I think listening deeply also is about listening to understand, not to respond.
And so not feeling like a leader, you need to have all the answers that you can be in a space of inquiry and to tell people, "You can tell me what's going on.
I may not have all the answers today.
I may need to get back to you."
So and one other thing I've learned a lot is just trying to make them as high bandwidth as possible when there's a critical topic, not having it over text medium, at least having it over audio when possible, if possible, video over that because you get more body language information.
And if possible, in person where you can hear someone's breath better, you can see their body language, you can see their posture, and you can be listening beyond to what they're saying to what they're communicating, like their whole being.
Down to fear sweat if you're in the same sometimes you can feel it.
Very good.
Yeah, as we sit here in a virtual setting, right, trying to do our best listening, but I appreciate that.
Exactly.
Oh, one thing I wanted to add real quick too is that I know we're going to hear from master listener next, John Paul Laderach, who I'm obsessed with, and I've loved reading his new guide, Pocket Guide to Facing Down a Civil War, but he gets into even different and deeper kinds of listening too, like restorative listening.
And that's listening to understand and help rehumanize someone if they've been kind of flattened along the way or prophetic listening, which is about the practice of listening in such a way that the person speaking has the opportunity to reflect at a new level for meaning and make some aha moments.
So I think we're just so, I think, bereft of the depth of listening practices that we could have access to, and I'm hoping that they'll start to become more the norm in leadership and school and all these other things, because they're so, it's really an art form to listen well.
You know, Jen, I think certainly an art form on the listening side, listening well.
And I think, when I think about the interconnectedness of volatility, probably many in our audience have listened to the two-part series you did on Slate's How To Podcast.
Yeah.
Right.
Hosted by investigative journalist, New York Times bestselling author, Amanda Ripley.
Just a fascinating exploration of the volatility I think we see in politics, but also how it manifests in sort of interpersonal relationships.
And so for those not familiar with the series, Monica Guzman, the author of the bestselling book I Never Thought of It That Way, and also senior fellow of public practice at Braver Angels along with Amanda, kind of coached Jen and her brother to have more productive conversations with their father on politics.
Conversations that are often sparked by these chain emails that Jen and her brother receive.
And it's just fascinating.
After providing some coaching, Jen and her brother have this sort of recorded conversation with their father that Monica and then Amanda assess and do some diagnosis on with Jen and her brother.
And if it's not something you've listened to, you really need to check it out.
It's a two-part series.
But, you know, Jen, give me a sense for what were some of your aha moments when you think about that volatility spawned by that sort of political discourse or attempt at discourse that I think I heard in the podcast.
And then the interpersonal volatility that sort of emerged from that.
What did you take from that?
And, you know, have you applied it in your communications profession?
If you want to know if my father stopped sending me political chain emails that infuriated me, yes, he has.
So that was successful.
But have we come to like total agreement about everything in the world and how things should be and what, you know, the right direction to go is absolutely not.
And that's okay.
And I think one of the big takeaways I had from the coaching that Monica and Amanda gave to me, and that me and my brother have been trying, you know, not always working, but it's got to get the repetition in, is there's just such a big difference between trying to understand someone and trying to come to an agreement.
And you are not going to change someone's mind in the course of a conversation, very likely.
It could happen.
It doesn't happen most of the time, especially if you're challenging someone's identity or their values or their self-perception or, you know, all these things.
It's not just going to happen through facts.
And, you know, winning is not the point.
And my brother was a former lawyer.
And so he kind of would go into litigator mode of just like, what about this fact?
And what about this fact?
And it was just like useless in that situation.
So one of the techniques that we both learned and that I try to practice as well in my just day-to-day life is a technique called looping that Amanda Ripley talks about in her book, High Conflict.
It's also known as tactical listening.
But it essentially means that instead of just listening to someone and replying, you actually paraphrase back to them what they said in your own words to make sure that you got it right before you move on to the next thing.
And it is bananas how often when I do that.
I have gotten something wrong and I think I'm just, okay, I'll loop and make sure and then we'll move on.
And then there's a new insight that comes into play or there's a build on something or a miscommunication of, no, that's not what I meant.
And in order to like, you know, if you think of a conversation in a way like scaffolding and whether you want to get higher or deeper or something, you want it to be solid each step of the way so that you don't end up at a conclusion that's based on a faulty assumption that happened early on.
So it's kind of like this assumption, I don't know, heat seeking technique that is just incredibly powerful.
And we've been teaching reporters how to use it in our coverage and working with journalists.
And they have likewise been having that kind of aha moment with the sources that they're working with of just taking a minute to say, "Here's what I think you said and here's what I understand."
And then folks giving them much more information and richer information as well as trusting them more because of that.
And a couple of other things I wanted to share that came to mind through this experience of working with my dad is that I took some of the best practices from my professional life through that conversation in which I set an agenda.
I didn't just try and like sneak into like, "Hey dad, those emails are really bumming me out.
Can we talk about it?"
You know, while he's watching a football game.
I actually said, "Can we take this space?
Like I'd like to address this.
Is this something you feel is a problem too?
Let's talk about it."
And I also just kind of said, "Here's my goal.
What's your goal?"
And I also had a notebook next to me.
Like there's no rule that you can't take notes when you're having a personal conversation or conversation with a family member.
And also just creating spaciousness.
I think that's one of the biggest things I've learned is that the harder the topic or the more fraught the decision that could come out of something is, the more time you should give.
Don't have a meeting coming up right afterwards.
Don't have to run to go do an errand.
Like if you can put it in a time where if it needs to breathe and unfold, it can.
Because I planned for an hour for me and my brother to talk to my dad and it was three hours.
So yeah, I think spaciousness for the more volatile and hard topics can't be underestimated.
Yeah.
Such great tips.
I love the scaffolding analogy.
I think that resonates with me.
Giving things space.
And I even have my notebook here.
If we have a conversation like this and it warrants a notebook, why wouldn't a conversation with someone, right?
Totally.
Yeah.
In that conversation with your father, values came up a few times.
And maybe as we shift the conversation and the focus of this discussion toward organizations and their leaders, can you share with me sort of any thoughts on what role you think organizational values play in helping an organization communicate through volatility?
Well, I mean, honestly, values are kind of everything.
They are, whether or not they're explicit or implicit, it's what we operate from all the time.
So I feel both they're the foundation from which you build everything and also your North Star for when you're floating in chaos and just need something to direct yourself toward.
But I think it's also really important to understand your own personal values as a leader.
They may or may not completely overlap with your company or the group that you're working with and your personal values are going to guide how you show up as well.
So I first ground myself in my own values and then in the organizations.
As much as I try to work on behalf of the organization, I'm still going to me, wherever I go.
And so my personal values that I always come back to, and maybe it's because I like alliteration, but I got three Cs.
Curiosity, I always want to make sure that I'm making room to not shut down and to have the space to wonder about someone else.
Compassion, I really have feared getting cynical in my life.
And if I am working in a space or doing something that is making me cynical, I know something is wrong.
So that's a reorientation for me.
And then also courage, if I'm not challenging myself or putting myself in positions where I need to test my courage, then I'm not living the life I want to live.
So those help me when I go into an organizational setting as well.
And like for my company, Harken, which means to listen and to give respectful attention, you know, Hark, the herald angels sing.
We look to create the conditions for caring, compassion, service, and teamwork, growth, and fulfillment.
And I'll tell you a quick story is that in 2020, and, you know, the year of COVID, the year of racial reckonings, George Floyd, it was obviously a time that rocked so many people in places.
And we could go back to our values in that time and concretely say, how might we show up with care and compassion during this period?
And that would translate to concrete things like we created an employee care fund where people had discretionary spending to get childcare, get groceries, get a massage.
We don't care.
It's up to you.
What does care look like in your life?
Let us help you offset that.
We also knew people needed more time, so we give them four-day work weeks.
Service and teamwork, you know, we thought about how can we create a way for people to nominate one another when they notice someone being a great team member or having great service to our partners and, you know, the boss might not see it.
So how do you nominate people for raises or bonuses or recognition?
And growth and fulfillment, like that's a constant in our team meetings, you know, at least once a year, do you feel like you're growing enough?
Do you feel like you have fulfillment in your work?
What could we change?
What could we do differently?
Once a year is too little, but at least having that in some kind of a review.
And I feel just overall on values, if you can't figure out a way to put them into concrete action, they're kind of meaningless slogans.
So you want to consider a collective process to review and define your values, like what would that actually look like so that it doesn't just remain language, but it's felt inside the organization.
Great tips.
We love at Mission Partners the power of three, so we love the three Cs for sure.
I jotted them down in my notebook that I'm allowed to have.
So we've got about three minutes left, which is somewhat amazing.
So I'm going to kind of jump to my last question, which is because you've really, you handled where I was going to go on the practical sort of ideas and techniques to use.
I love those examples from your lived experience.
Let's flip to November 5th.
So sort of practical, right.
Some practical tips around that.
So I guess what I would love to get your take on is, you know, what's the maybe one thing that leaders should be doing right now ahead of the election, I should say, on November 5th to prepare organizations for how they'll communicate on November 6th and maybe beyond, right?
So what do you think about volatility in that way?
There are so many scenarios that could unfold, so I don't think you could have 12 messages that could fit everything that might happen.
I think on the internal front, if your organization is open and willing to do this, I would recommend just giving your staff time to go out and vote, encourage them to be poll workers if they're up for it and paying them for that time.
If you're trying to say, "We support democracy, we support this kind of work," show it by how you show up that day.
I think also sharing out polling information and sites that are good that they can also share with their friends, family, and relatives, because there's going to be a ton of misinformation floating around, like really terrible, deepfake AI stuff where they're going to say, "Oh, the polling place is closed.
Go here," and it's not.
So really helping equip your own staff in their community with the information they need.
And to staff, I would recommend messaging early and often.
Things like, "We're not going to know the results," likely on the 5th or the 6th.
We may not know them for a few months even if some of these lawsuits happen.
You should also just make clear to yourself and your colleagues whether or not your organization is one who will make a statement, internally or externally, if something occurs, whether that's political violence or if one person wins or doesn't.
Just know that ahead of time so you're not being reactive to staff needs or the world or whatnot.
And that there may be political violence, so be prepared that folks may be distracted when it comes to that and feel anxious.
So if you can create this welcoming environment for people to be people at work as well, maybe to create some extra time and space in the week or two that follow for folks to get together and talk about what happened or didn't happen or how they're feeling.
That can be great too if you feel like you have the facilitation abilities and it's appropriate given your staff and their makeup.
But those are a few things I'd recommend.
Darn, that wasn't one.
That was like 10.
No, no.
That's okay.
I think they're all going to be useful for our audience.
So yeah, so we are at time, Jen.
Okay, we did it.
We did it.
It's such a great conversation.
Thank you for really making the time, of course, sharing your insights here.
It's always so great to listen to.
It's such an interesting way, I think, of sharing practical information for leaders and I'm just really grateful to you for that.
I hope you sparked a lot for our audience today.
I encourage the audience to consider thinking on this idea of communicating through volatility from what you just heard.
What could be one practical lesson that you can apply starting today, maybe this afternoon, maybe tomorrow, that you can apply in your own communications?
And just like that, we are at the end of another episode of Mission Forward.
If you heard something that's going to stick with you, drop me a line at carrie@mission.partners and let me know what's got you thinking.
And definitely check out some of our other long-form shows on the power of communications.
Mission Forward is produced with the support of Sadie Lockhart in association with True Story FM, engineering by Pete Wright.
If your podcast app allows for ratings and reviews, I hope you will consider doing just that for this show.
The best thing you can do to support Mission Forward is simply to share the show with a friend or a colleague.
Thanks for your support and we'll see you next time.
