Communications to Power Healthy Outcomes
About This Episode
This season, we’re looking closer at you how you can use communications as a tool for systems change and social justice. Our first guest, Mark Miller, along with his colleagues, has just written the book on the power of public health communications, Talking Health: A New Way to Communicate about Public Health. Carrie Fox sat down with Mark at an event hosted by the University of Nebraska Medical Center and, with our great thanks to that amazing organization, we offer the interview to you, listeners of the podcast.
Mark Miller serves as Vice President of Communications at the de Beaumont Foundation. His career started in public and civic service before moving to children’s health and now public health. To all these roles, he brings a rich perspective to the challenges that face many front line communicators, including those who are needing to relay critical communications in real time, even as the science is still informing the message.
This conversation includes Carrie and Mark in conversation, plus the insightful questions from an audience of invested communicators honing their craft. Our great thanks to Mark Miller and the team at the University of Nebraska Medical Center for making this conversation possible.
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Mark Miller:
The thing that really stands with me though is that for good or bad, the pandemic has put public health professionals in the spotlight. I think as a field, we've gotten a little better about telling human stories about public health, talking about people instead of talking about FTEs or infrastructure. I mean, who wants to be called infrastructure, right? But we do that especially in Washington. So, one of the biggest takeaways for me is the commitment and sacrifice, the people who are on the front lines. And so much of that work happens behind the scenes and we need to be better about telling our story, telling their stories.
Carrie Fox:
Hi there and welcome to the Mission Forward podcast, where each week, we bring you a thought-provoking and perspective-shifting conversation on the power of communications. I'm Carrie Fox, your host and CEO of Mission Partners, a social impact communications firm and certified B corporation, and that was the voice of Mark Miller, the first guest in this sixth season of the show. On this season, we are looking closer at how you can use communications as a tool for systems change and social justice. Mark has just written the book on the power of public health communications. And I recently interviewed him at an event hosted by the University of Nebraska Medical Center. The conversation was so rich that we decided to drop it here too. A quick word on Mark, I have had the pleasure of working with and learning from Mark Miller for the past 12 years, most recently in our shared role in support of the Public Health Communication Collaborative, PHCC. By day, Mark is vice president of communications at the de Beaumont Foundation, and he is the lead editor of this new book, Talking Health: A New Way to Communicate about Public Health.
Carrie Fox:
I know every conversation I've ever had with Mark has resulted in a few aha moments, and this one today is no exception. With a career that started in public and civic service before moving to children's health and now public health, Mark brings a really interesting perspective to the challenges that face many frontline communicators, including those who are needing to relay critical communications in real time even as the science is still informing the message. We're going to pick up this conversation with Mark telling me about his journey into nonprofit communications before we get to the heart of public health communications. But here's the bottom line for the show ahead, knowing how to talk about public health can have a direct impact on the health of a community, so understanding what works is essential. This is a really interesting conversation. Enjoy the show and I will see you on the flip side. Mark, let me just first say thank you for joining us today. I'm so glad we've got this time with you.
Mark Miller:
Thanks. [inaudible 00:03:11] introduction, and we're really excited to be talking about this book. I've been working on it for close to four years, so it's really nice to have something to talk about.
Carrie Fox:
Good. I want us to start by you telling us all a little bit about your journey as a nonprofit communicator. You started in a career that was focused on public and civic service. You moved into children's health and now, you're with de Beaumont Foundation and PHCC, but big picture, you're still fairly new to public health communications. What drives your passion for public health?
Mark Miller:
Well, that's right. I joined the de Beaumont Foundation about four years ago after doing communications at Children's National Hospital for 10 years. Early in my career, I was at the National Governor's Association and then the White House, and I worked in a lot of different policy areas, but I was always drawn to issues where I could see a direct human connection, things like education and health and social services. So at the hospital, it was very rewarding to work in healthcare, use communications to raise money to help sick children and their families, but I really love working in public health because it affects every single person and not just when they're sick. So, I have the best job in the world. My current job posts together my interest in communications, policy, health and philanthropy.
Carrie Fox:
And you have such an interesting perspective, Mark, from where you sit, and I know we'll hear that through the insights you share today, but you're sitting at the VP of communications position for the largest foundation focusing on state and local public health. You're seeing a lot from a lot of different perspectives. This is a big question to start, but we're going to dive right in with it. I'm curious, when you think back, Mark, over the last few years, what is sticking with you about the importance of talking about public health, having experienced a global public health crisis?
Mark Miller:
Well, it's almost funny, but when I started working at de Beaumont Foundation, a big part of my job was to help define public health for regular people and try to make public health more visible and relevant. And then two years into my job in 2020, we were suddenly dealing with a global pandemic, and our work really took on a new sense of urgency. We did a lot of polling about messaging. So, we'd already been looking at public health messaging, but then we were doing polling, specifically, on COVID and vaccines. The thing that really stands with me though is that for good or bad, the pandemic has put public health professionals in a spotlight. I think as a field, we've gotten a little better about telling human stories about public health, talking about people instead of talking about FTEs or infrastructure. I mean, who wants to be called infrastructure, right? But we do that especially in Washington. So, one of the biggest takeaways for me is the commitment and sacrifice, the people who are on the front lines. And so much of that work happens behind the scenes and we need to be better about telling our story, telling their stories.
Carrie Fox:
Yeah, I can imagine being called a lot of things, but I agree, I'm not sure I'd want to be called infrastructure. You mentioned at the top, Mark, that there are some assumptions, and you talk about them in the book, big assumptions that the general public has about public health. And when you started in at de Beaumont, you knew, one of the first things you needed to figure out is how do you break some of those assumptions? But for folks who are listening in today, this group of public health practitioners and communicators, what are some of those assumptions that keep coming up for you that perhaps should stay top of mind as folks think about how to break some of those assumptions in their own work?
Mark Miller:
That's a good question. I think there's a lot of assumptions that I think some are intuitive and others we've found in our research, but I think the biggest one is that people don't distinguish between public health and healthcare. And many people think public health is something that's only for underserved communities. And I know coming into this job from the hospital, we have a public health department and I thought of it as working with underserved communities. And so, I've learned a lot in my four years. But I think the other big one is that people don't understand how much of their health is impacted by where they live and decisions that other people make for them. Decisions we make today can either help or harm the health of people for generations, and they can also create and deepen health and economic disparities, like when some communities have less access to healthy food or reliable public transportation.
Mark Miller:
So bringing it back to communications, policies and area where I think examples and stories can work better than statistics. And I think journalists do a good job with storytelling. The book has a chapter by Soledad O’Brien. And in general, public health people don't do a good job telling stories. So if you want to show how people are affected by the conditions where they live and these decisions that are made for them, you can tell the story of one person or one family, and that can have a much bigger impact. So, our new book has a whole chapter on storytelling and another one specifically on how to bring data to life.
Carrie Fox:
Mark, I just want to underscore that point of how important stories are and making the data come to life. What I've learned so much in my career in social impact communications, and you and I have shared this thought, is that there is great responsibility as a communicator. And we think about the stories we tell, the narrative that we help shape, hopefully along the way, there are certain narratives that we're helping to break or stereotypes that we're helping to break too, but that is our role as the communicator to create that full and informed view of the story or the issue. You've been working on this book for four years and there's a lot that's happened in our world in those four years, but I want you to tell me a little bit about the book. How did it come about? What was that first aha, we need to do this? And who was it written for?
Mark Miller:
Well, I mentioned that we've been working on the book for more than three years, so it started before the pandemic. And we had done research and also just been talking to lots of people that communications has been identified as a big need by public health people, and not just professional communicators needing more but everyone communicates. So, the book has insights and tools that for people who are professional communicators, I think it'll be valuable and they'll like it. But really, the main audience is really anyone working in public health because it can help with any type of communication, it has very practical tools, and it's much more conversational than a textbook would have, so a more conversational tone than a textbook would have. So, I think it's very readable. And I think we have some really good contributing authors that make the book interesting and not just, like I said, a textbook. You'll enjoy reading it.
Carrie Fox:
Yeah.
Mark Miller:
The project that led to the book was called PHRASES, and that stands for Public Health Reaching Across Sectors because what we were hearing is that informing partnerships in the community, people didn't even know what public health people do or really what they brought to the table. And so, we looked to understand those assumptions better and then developed specific words and messaging and tools and then added that to insights from other communications leaders.
Carrie Fox:
Speaking of words, there are two that come up really strongly for me as I've been learning from you and listening along this journey, trust and clarity. And I noted at the top, you might want to write a couple things down. Mark, why are those two words, trust and clarity, so essential in public health communications?
Mark Miller:
I've been thinking about these two concepts separately. Lots of people are talking about how do we restore trust in public health, and then we're also talking about how do we communicate better. And a lot of people are looking to communications to solve the trust problem. I've heard people say, "We need a big national ad campaign so we can build trust in public health." But really, you need both. So, people need to understand what you're saying and they need to believe that you're reliable and you have their best interest at heart. It doesn't work if you have clarity, but you don't have trust. It also doesn't work if you've built trust, but you don't communicate clearly. A few weeks ago, there was a conference for the Society for Health Communication, and the thing that stood out to me the most was something that sounds really simple but I think is really important and that is to build or rebuild trust, you have to first ask, who doesn't trust you? And second, you need to ask, why don't they trust you? You need the answers to those questions before you can figure out what you need to do. And there won't be just one solution because you have multiple audiences and multiple factors and trust and mistrust.
Carrie Fox:
Yeah. If we think about that trust question, it just such an interesting way you framed it there. We knew that public health had a communications problem well before COVID. That's not an outcome of the global pandemic, but we knew when you were doing this research, there is no clear or universal way of defining public health. Are we getting any closer to a shared understanding? And if not, what needs to happen to help us get there? And if it helps, go ahead and read for me how you define public health.
Mark Miller:
Yeah, I did want to read one short excerpt about that because we have a lot of sample language in the book that was tested, sort of looking at what's not working and then trying to figure out a way to make it work better. So, this is how we describe a unique value proposition, people are often unclear about the role and value of public health lead into questions like, what exactly is public health and how is it different from healthcare? The following unique value proposition is a short statement that describes the benefits of public health and distinguishes it from other fields. This statement can be used to introduce the topic and answer common questions. So the statement is, just like a person who makes decisions that affect their health, so does a community. We need clean air and safe neighborhoods, for example. Public health experts listen to the community and look for patterns in what is affecting their health. They use science to diagnose problems and they bring together everyone who can stop health threats before they start. So, it provides some specific examples and good verbs, and it's something that is a start, it's a framework. It doesn't mean that that will become the definition for everyone in public health, but it's a framework that can be used and tailored for the people that you're talking to.
Carrie Fox:
Mark, there's a couple of things that I want to pull out there. There are some pieces in what you've just said, Mark, that I think are so important to why what you said works across different audiences, across different communities is that you have found a way to take something that's really complex and you've made it real. You've found a way to make it repeatable and you found a way to make it relevant to whoever the person is listening, right? You've taken something really complex and found a way to make it basic. And at the end of the day, that's often what we talk about is the keys to communication is how do you take something that's really complicated and simplify it in a way that someone will remember it, someone will be able to share it with another but ultimately, understand where you're coming from, right? So much of our work in any sector, public health or otherwise, we naturally default or defer to the jargon of our field. And so, it's an important reminder of the simplification of the process. Tell us more what you are learning about the importance of that simplicity in messages.
Mark Miller:
Well, I should have mentioned before that we did this work through the... The FrameWorks Institute did a lot of the benchmarking and the research, and then we also worked with Highway Communications and helped us turn that into the actual words like the ones I just read. I think that in public health, one thing that I've seen, and my brother also works in public health at Columbia University and he agrees with this, that we get in our own way by using the jargon. And I've had situations where I'm editing and someone's fighting for those words, like we have to use those words, this is how we have to say it. And the question becomes, do you want people to understand it or do you want to use your words? Because sometimes, you can't have both. I've worked with doctors and politicians and others, and I think that it's really about how people hear what you say and not just what you think you're saying, but how they hear it is more important.
Mark Miller:
And a lot of people will push back on we're dumbing it down, but if you're trying to get people to follow your health guidance, they need to understand what you're saying. So you can stick to your jargon, but if you're looking for changed behavior or understanding, you do need to communicate in different ways. And that's why the title of book is a New Way to Communicate because to some people, this will come across as maybe oversimplified, but it's what people understand who you want to talk to. The other thing I think is that people think of... There's like the general public and then there's like business leaders or leaders in education or policymakers. Policymakers are people too. Health business leaders are people too. And this is about helping people understand what you're saying. It's not dumbing it down for lowest common denominator. It's about anyone you're talking to because they're people.
Carrie Fox:
Yeah. Yeah, great point. You have worked quite closely over the last few years with author, and pollster, researcher, Frank Luntz. And folks who heard me speak in Nebraska probably remember the line that I shared of his, which is, "It's not what you say, it's what people hear." It's a great reminder, Mark, of what you're setting up here, which is we can sit out and say something, doesn't mean people will hear it. And so, being really mindful of thinking through the lens of our audience, of the user, of whatever communications barriers might be in the way, whether they be digital divides, whether they be language divides, whatever that divide might be, and making sure you're creating the communications in a way that most people possible can access it and remember it. Mark, more and more, I am realizing in this work that everyone in public health is also a public health communicator. You don't need to have that word in your title to still be on the frontlines communicating these key messages. However, most folks are doing it without any formal communications training. And so, I think that's where the gap and the challenge often comes up. What have you found in your work as the essential elements of public health communications that everyone should practice, whether communications is in your title or not?
Mark Miller:
I think a lot of these lessons come from the... As you said, we had a communications problem before the pandemic. The pandemic really exposed them and underscored them. So I think a few things that are very important is first, coordination, coordinating what you say within your organization and with other organizations what they're saying. I think that was one of the breakdowns with COVID communications. We were just talking about using straightforward language that people can understand, staying away from jargon. Paying attention to who's speaking to whom. When you're talking to different audiences with different backgrounds, different perspectives they're bringing to the conversation, it's very important. I think the term trusted messengers is overused, but basically, people need to know and believe in the people who are communicating.
Mark Miller:
And sometimes, that means a public health official might need to step aside and let someone else communicate that messaging because the message is what's important and it doesn't mean that you have to be the one delivering it. I think another big lesson is being honest about what you don't know, so saying, this is what we know now. There's some other stuff we don't know, but this is our guidance based on what we don't know. If that changes, we're going to come back to you. As opposed to being definitive like, this is it and then come back the next day saying, okay, now, this is it. So, I think being honest about what we don't know is something having humility and that is important. And then, we've touched on this a little bit, but data is really important, but you can't just rely on data in your communication. We all need to use more stories, examples and people to bring public health to life.
Carrie Fox:
Yeah. I would love to hear some of those stories from you. Let's take a pause and see if we have some questions, and then perhaps you can tee up one or two stories you've heard over the last couple years. Katie or Jessica, anything coming to mind?
Jessica:
So, we have one question right now from our audience. How can public health practitioners evaluate the effectiveness of their communications and figure out if the audience has truly heard the message?
Mark Miller:
I could start, Carrie, and then you can add. But I think a lot of this is about benchmarking what current perceptions are, so listening, going out of community, whether that's one-on-one meetings or town hall meetings. Looking back at, say, in the past two years of communication how you can do better, you can sit in an office and decide what you did wrong and how it can be better. You really need to talk to the community about what did you experience and how can we do better. And then, I think it's about continuing to listen, whether it's surveys or conversations or other ways continuing to check in because I think when we talk about building trust, you have to know where you're starting before you know where to go to build more trust.
Carrie Fox:
Yeah. And I would just add a bit onto that, which is many folks hear the word research and think expensive and wonder, how am I going to do message testing when I don't even have the resources I need to do X, Y or Z? So, one of the things that we often remind folks is to get a baseline of messaging. You can do something that we lovingly call perception research. It can be a handful of conversations you have with a variety of stakeholders in your community. And perhaps, you do those conversations once or twice a year, where you're asking the same set of questions. When you go to our website, what's the top message that you see? When you think about our organization, what's the key message you think of or what's the emotion you associate our work with? And then ask those questions again and again and again over time, and you'll start to see if the answers you're getting are more aligned with the answers you'd hope to get, right? So, that's purely perception. Are people hearing or seeing what you want them to hear and see?
Katie:
Mark, this is Katie. A question they have is [inaudible 00:23:01] when you're talking about jargon, so good at using jargon, what are our biggest traps? Are there some clear words and phrases that we just need to drop from our communications because they are ineffective?
Mark Miller:
I couldn't give you a list of words not to use, but I know that Soledad O'Brien has used social determinants of health as a buzzword in public health that people outside don't understand. And so, I really think about it as, how would you describe it to a family member, even a child? To me, that's really the test is taking yourself out of the professional setting and just saying, okay, try to explain social determinants of health to a person, to your neighbor, to someone at the grocery store. And to me, that's really the test of whether a large population will understand what you're saying. I think there's also just terms I think that again, when a doctor's explaining something, you're more likely to listen to the doctor if you understand what they're saying.
Mark Miller:
And I think this is something that's counterintuitive, but there's a lot of studies showing that, I've seen it with doctors and with lawyers, that if you can help someone understand, people perceive you as smarter and more reliable. So, you're not impressing people with the big fancy words, you're impressing them by communicating in a way that they can understand. And so, I think it's about asking and not just talking at somebody but saying, here's what we know, here's what we think you should do. Do you have any questions about that? And not looking at someone if they say, I don't understand the term you just used, but really being open to questions I think is really important. And the best doctors to do that and public health people should be doing that too. I've heard efficacy use as another example, like either the vaccine works or doesn't work but the efficacy versus efficiency, and I see these debates among public health people on Twitter like, oh no, that's the wrong word. You can't say that, you can't say that. But do you want people understand what you're saying? That should ultimate goal.
Katie:
So the one in the chat, while writing this book, did you have any epiphany related to public health communication? And if yes, what was it?
Mark Miller:
I'm pretty sure [inaudible 00:25:26] epiphany. It wasn't completely surprising, but I think it's one of the most important things that I think about a lot is that we did in-depth interviews with leaders in business, healthcare, housing and education. And we asked people about, what is public health? First of all, what is the concept of public health? And we heard lots of different answers, lots of confusion about that. But then we asked about public health leaders. And if you were trying to solve a problem in the community, would you invite your public health official to be [inaudible 00:26:02] solve that problem? And the answer was no. And that's because many people perceive public health people as book-smart but not problem solvers. And I think that's a perception that we need to change, but we need to change it by showing that we can solve problems. And part of that is communicating, so communicating about what the problem is and how we can be a part of solving that and the other problems that we've solved in the past. We got to speak up for ourselves where people will think that we're just sitting at a desk looking at data. So to me, the whole perception of book-smart is an important obstacle to get over, and that really stuck with me.
Carrie Fox:
Mark, that's the perfect tee up for my next question and comment. And I know we have a few more in the chat we'll get to, but you just made reference to solutions. So, I would love to hear from you about a few folks who during COVID, when faced with some challenging obstacles around communications, got creative to communicate and engage with their communities.
Mark Miller:
I think that there was a lot of different ways, geographically, people translated issues that their communities could understand. I remember when you're talking about how much is six feet, in Florida, they said an alligator is about six feet, so they actually had illustrations like that. So to me, what was most impressive was the people who used illustrations, and metaphors, analogies to make these issues real and understandable. And so, I think it was the exception rather than the rule, but it was the people who used social media really well. I also think the thing that works that we haven't talked much about is really tailoring and segmenting information. I know that the company that worked with CDC on translating information actually had materials translated into 400 languages. So, it's not about finding the message that will work for everybody, it's about tailoring it. And I know that not everyone here is going to be able to translate their materials to 400 languages, but really, that's what it takes. And so, it's not as glamorous as coming up with a perfect message, but it really is the hardwork in communications that makes that effective.
Carrie Fox:
Mark, maybe build off of that, what have you found as it relates to visualizing messages? So, I know you're a big fan of thinking about how to take really complicated information and turn it into a data graphic or an infographic. Does that help to create a more universal understanding of a message in any way when it is being visualized?
Mark Miller:
Yeah, I think so. That's something that we've done with the Public Health Communications Collaborative is we were often taking information from the CDC, publicly available information, it's right there on the website, and turning that into a graphic, whether that was about travel or comparing the three vaccines or Halloween tips. And we just found that agencies around the country just ate that up because it really helped them communicate in a way that people understood. And so, we're trying to do more of that because it's something that I keep hearing from agencies is that they want materials that they can use and tailor for their own uses because the whole thousand words, pictures, graphics. I also think it's not about necessarily a bar graph or a line graph, it really depends what you're trying to illustrate. And having someone be able to look at an illustration or some kind of graphic, that very quickly communicates the idea you need to communicate. So I think at first, figuring out what is that nugget as opposed to how can we cram all this information into a single graphic.
Carrie Fox:
There's a great book from many, many years ago when I was in design school called Don't Make Me Think, and it gets to that point of how quickly can you get someone to understand your concept without having to read the fine print, right? They should get it right at the top. There's a question in the chat that gets [inaudible 00:30:37] little bit. I'm going to kick off on a point and then toss to you Mark. The question is around discussing the fine line between tailoring messages for intended audiences and the key point that we've made here around simplicity. So, how do we marry up this idea that you need to tailor messages but make them really simple? And there's one thing that I always think about though, Mark, I'm going to want you to add onto this, which is the message is the message is the message, meaning there is a core message that you want to make sure is getting through across all audiences and communications.
Carrie Fox:
From there, there will certainly need to be customization or tailoring, whatever that word is that you use, that makes that message relevant to that audience. And so, that might be you've got to deliver it a different way, you've got to deliver it in a different audience, you've got to deliver it in different format to make sure it will be received and heard and remembered by that audience. But at the end of the day, you're not thinking about eight different sets of messages, you're thinking about that core message and how then it's customized. But Mark, I'd love for you to add onto that or amend in some way as you think about it from public health.
Mark Miller:
Yeah, I think that's right. I really focus a lot on strategy, so when someone comes to me and says, I want a newsletter, I say, who are you communicating with? What do you want them to do? And the answer is sometimes like, no, I just want a newsletter. Or I want a social media channel. Well, how are you going to grow that? Who's it for? What do you want people to do? And so, I think starting with that is what's the problem you're trying to solve, who do you need to communicate, and what do you want those people to do? And so, that's the core message of the vaccine is safe, you should take it, blah, blah, blah. And then as you said, you tailor it so each audience understands that core message, but you have to start with what is it that you're trying to accomplish and how are you going to know if you're successful?
Carrie Fox:
Right. And then once the answer to that and you start to think about then your audience and getting that message through, I think the other important thing that I've learned from you and I've seen in some of the COVID stories that have come out is that a good public health communicator will find their audience. They won't wait for their audience to find them. And I'm thinking back to one story you had shared with me of a really creative public health official in a small town that was not a news desert but had limited options for news distribution. And she teamed up with that local newspaper and suggested that she write a daily column with updates so that she knew folks who were reading that paper, and it was, that was what they relied on, that was their sole and central source of news. We're going to hear the latest updates every day. And so sometimes, it's thinking about first, why are you communicating, to whom are you communicating, and where is that audience? Find them versus waiting for them to find you.
Mark Miller:
And asking those questions, where do you get your news, who do you trust, where do you go for this kind of information? And so, that's a lot of the... The polling that we did is if you want to talk about vaccines for kids, pediatricians are most trusted. And every family has a pediatrician, so the communication through pediatricians was really important, but there were places that were more reliable than others. And so, that differed based on the topic.
Carrie Fox:
I'm going to see up a final question here from Eleanor in the chat. And then Katie and Jessica, I'll turn it back to you. Her question is, as a communications professional, how do I talk to public health officials who want to use jargon in communications?
Mark Miller:
I don't think you need... As you said, you don't have to spend a lot of money on research, but you could suggest testing it informally. If you have other people on your staff who are not sciencey or if you have even family members, if you say, I think we should say it this way because I think more people will understand it, you think we should say it this way, why don't we test it against someone who's in our target audience to see what they think? Because you're probably going to win that argument or you might be surprised. But I think it's really about, what I was just talking about, is who are you talking to, what do you want them to do because if they don't understand it, you're not going to be successful. And I know it sounds easy, it's not when you're dealing with people who are very smart and been talking this way for a long time, but it's really about getting them to think about the action, the goal and how you're going to know if you were successful. And if there's any way to bounce it off a few people, maybe a community, organization or more people you know, I think it's often helpful to have other people make your point and not make it just the communications person arguing with the non-communications person.
Carrie Fox:
Katie, I'll toss it back to you.
Katie:
[inaudible 00:35:44] couple of questions [inaudible 00:35:45] one is about one, follow-up question about the tailoring conversation we've having, and then another one around some inclusion and diversity idea. So the first one, to close this conversation on, to tailor or not to tailor? I've often heard public health practitioners say that if they tailor or pick and choose what to share with a particular audience, then this might be considered manipulating data. What are your thoughts on this?
Carrie Fox:
I have always said, and Mark agrees with this, that there is a kind of communications that is considered spin when you're trying to spin the story or shift the story. I know what Mark and I firmly believe in is transparently sharing the story, so sharing it in a way that people will understand, sharing the full story even when the information is hard to make sure that you're sharing that in a way that people can hear and understand. Sometimes, it means what we call cascading messages, so starting somewhere and then building over time onto that message so it's not to overwhelm someone.
Mark Miller:
It's about making the point you need to make but being open about it. And in some cases, that might mean sharing more data. It's like, here's the message. And if you want to see the data behind it, here it is. So, it's one way that might help, but I do think it's right that it's about communicating honestly, helping people understand, and not thinking about it as spin.
Carrie Fox:
Yeah. And Mark, we talked at the top those two words, right? Trust and credibility. Manipulating any sort of data is the first thing to do if you are trying to lose trust. Really, to be able to build, earn, grow, trust, you need to focus on transparency, the transparency of your messages, letting folks see the work behind the messages, meaning let folks see the data and what happens behind it, obviously always citing your sources and your research, but transparency matters.
Mark Miller:
And I think... I was just reading the other day about mistrust versus distrust. And I'm surprised that in 45 minute, we haven't talked about politics much, but mistrust is people having a healthy questioning attitude and distrust is being cynical and assuming that anything you say is going to be a lie. So I think when you're talking about manipulating data, to some people, it's like, well, you're just making stuff up so I don't believe anything you say, and you're not going to be able to do much with that. But with people who mistrust who have good questions, be open to listening to those questions and answering them because to me, that's what, in politics, we would call it the moveable middle, are the people who are mistrustful more than the people who are distrustful and are just inclined to not believe anything you say.
Katie:
Speaking of things to say, Mark, your dog has a lot to say today.
Mark Miller:
Too much. Sorry.
Katie:
It's giving me a giggle. I love it. Here's another question. We're going to change course a little bit. And Julia will put this in the chat so that you can read it. It's a little longer, so I want to make sure you can read it while I'm saying it out loud. Inclusion refers to changing the entire system of us versus them and moving towards systems where each community has a chance to author content and determine approach moving towards anti-racist systems, but we continue to use us versus them mindset. How has your system of developing communication or understanding public health communication changed by working alongside persons not from the dominant culture?
Mark Miller:
I think it's a really good question and I think that in our research, we try to make sure we're listening to different perspectives, hiring professionals who represent different views, and intentionally reach out to people who typically don't have a voice because I do think that in our country, there very much is an us versus them, and I that what we're really talking about... I mean, this book is not... There's very little discussion of politics because what we're talking about is finding a common understanding. We want everyone to be healthy. And you can't talk about everyone being healthy without talking about systems that have made many people less healthy and talking about the systems that hold people back and create inequity and then make it worse. So, I think we have to always be aware of the systems that affect that and listen to the people we need to listen to and not just the typical sources. Carrie, what would you add to that?
Carrie Fox:
Yeah, it's a great point. I actually would also say that when we think about systems, there are many systems that are embedded in how we communicate, at the pace by which we communicate. We think about the white dominant norm of urgency and how it is standard to think about how fast can I turn this around, how quick can I get this out even it means I'm the only eyes on it. That is a really important norm to break. And so to understand that if we want to move along an anti-racist journey knowing that we can never get there, that is a lifelong journey to move along, that we can always move further by challenging those systems, by challenging the white dominant norms that exist and challenge any one of us as communicators or public health practitioners to say, why is it that way? What would happen if we slowed this down or what would happen if we actually shifted the pen and the final approval from this spokesperson actually to a community-led process? And how do we change who has that power to build and frame the narrative? So, I think there's so much in that question. I appreciate it.
Katie:
One more question from the chat, and then I think we're closing now on your words, I've seen infographics that are pages long that are supposed to be communicating scientific findings, uh-oh, even one from de Beaumont, they say, how long should an infographic be?
Mark Miller:
We try to do good infographics and if there's an example that doesn't work, I'd like to hear about it. And you're probably right, to me, I have a very high standard for infographics. A lot of times, what we do is we illustrate data and we say, here's an infographic. To me, that's not an infographic. An infographic is what Carrie was saying before. It helps you understand a complex issue quickly. And so, it's like if you have a line graph showing a trend, it is more effective than a bar graph, something as simple as that. So you look at it and you're like, oh, that's going down, or oh, that's going up. So, something like that helps bring it to life, but I think that the best infographics really help. Even people who know will say, wow, I didn't realize that. Now, I understand something I didn't understand before. And I actually keep examples of infographics that I like that I think do that well and challenge our internal team to really do the best. And I think you need to start by saying, what's the point we're trying to communicate, and then figuring out the best way to do that, but what's the simple point we're trying to make as opposed to how do we make all this data fit on a page?
Carrie Fox:
Yeah. And Mark, to build on that, I can think back to infographics that we developed in 2010, 2011, 2012. They were pretty complex. And often, they were taking very, very complex reports and thinking about how do I literally visualize this report, right? Social media has done a lot to how we think and operate and process information, but one thing we know more than anything these days is that what we call bite-sized information, digestible information matters. And so, you could take that same infographic that maybe altogether has 10 or 15 parts to it and break it down to 10 or 15 different graphics. And so it's again, how you serve up the information that over time, will help people see and learn and understand the concept rather than feeling like you've got to push it all out at once. I know we are getting ready to end. I want to just pause and say an enormous thank you to Jessica and Katie and to Julia Quigley, who so much of communications happens behind the scenes. And events like this don't happen without really awesome and excellent communicators like Julia and Jessica and Katie, so thank you so much for setting this up today.
Katie:
Mark, if you were going to have the last word on this call, what would it be? Final advice for our audience.
Mark Miller:
I would say get the book. Let us know what you think about it. I would love it if people try some of the stuff in the book and give us feedback on it and also figure out how to tweak it for your own use. It's really not a one size fits all, but I do think it's got useful tools, so it's something that we're continuing to work on. The book is not the end of our work in communications, so we would love to hear any feedback that people have.
Katie:
I hope not. I hope it's not the end of the work. I'm so excited. Thank you so much, Mark and Carrie, for this compelling conversation and the sneak peek at some of the amazing resources provided within Talking Health: A New Way to Communicate About Public Health on shelves in July, Amazon and your local bookstores.
Carrie Fox:
And that brings us to the end of this episode of Mission Forward. Thanks for tuning in today. If you are stewing on what we discussed here today or if you heard something that's going to stick with you, drop me a line at carrie@mission.partners, and let me know what's got you thinking. And if you have thoughts for where we should go in future shows, I would love to hear that too. Mission Forward is produced with the support of Sadie Lockhart in association with the True Story Team, engineering by Pete Wright. If your podcast app allows for ratings and reviews, I hope you will consider doing just that for this show. But the best thing you can do to support Mission Forward is simply to share the show with a friend or colleague. Thanks for your support, and we'll see you next time.
