Bridging Divides and Building Back Better with JustFund’s Iara Peng, Interfaith America’s Eboo Patel and Chronicle of Philanthropy’s Stacy Palmer
About This Episode
Two builders walk into a podcast studio… no, seriously. This isn’t the start of a joke, but the beginning of a deeply fascinating exploration into the very architecture of social change. We’re talking about the kind of change that doesn’t just rearrange the furniture, but rebuilds the house from the foundation up. And that, my friends, is a far more intricate and precarious undertaking.
This week on Mission Forward, we’re joined by not one, but two remarkable individuals who embody this spirit of courageous construction. Stacey Palmer, editor of The Chronicle of Philanthropy, sets the stage introducing Eboo Patel, founder of Interfaith America, and Iara Peng, the visionary behind JustFund.
Together, Eboo and Iara paint a vivid picture of what it truly means to build a more just and equitable world. They share their hard-won wisdom, gleaned from years of experience battling bureaucratic inertia and challenging deeply ingrained biases. Eboo recounts his early struggles navigating the labyrinthine world of philanthropic gatekeepers, a story that resonates with anyone who’s ever dared to dream big. Iara, meanwhile, offers a glimpse into the future of giving, where technology empowers donors to align their actions with their values, transforming philanthropy from a passive act of charity into a dynamic force for change.
This episode is a call to action, a reminder that we all have a role to play in building the world we want to see. Grab your metaphorical hardhat and join us as we architect social innovation with two of the most inspiring builders of our time.
Links & Notes
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Carrie Fox:
All right, to all the sustainable business professionals who are listening, you do not have to go it alone. I want to introduce you today to the Reconsidered Change Hub. I love it. It's a membership community designed to help you save time and stay on the leading edge of the sustainability and social impact space. To help make your work easier, we have teamed up with our friends at Reconsidered to give you all a special offer. You can now get 10% off to join the Change Hub by heading over to changehub.co and use the code MISSION10 at checkout. Thanks so much.
Speaker 2:
Breaking news.
Speaker 3:
Breaking news.
Speaker 4:
It's the year of the chatbot.
Speaker 5:
The latest setback for Climate Act.
Speaker 6:
The latest Supreme Court ruling.
Speaker 7:
In the latest Supreme Court ruling, the court is set to redefine.
Carrie Fox:
Hi there and welcome to the Mission Forward podcast. I'm Carrie Fox, your host, and this week we're taking you back to earlier this fall exactly to listen in on a great conversation with democracy and community builders, Iara Peng and Eboo Patel. This conversation was recorded at Mission Forward Live and we were thrilled to have Stacy Palmer of the Chronicle of Philanthropy with us to facilitate it.
Now, if you're feeling uncertain about the future, as many are, maybe you're even feeling frozen about how to navigate that future, Iara and Eboo are just the antidote. They bring optimism, creativity, and energy to thinking about how we build community and the change we wish to see in the world. So stay tuned for a fantastic conversation with Iara and Eboo and I'll see you on the other side.
We are somehow already coming into lab six and a conversation I've been looking forward to for quite a while. We've also got Stacy Palmer back. Stacy, thanks for coming back and taking the lead on this conversation.
Stacy Palmer:
Great to join you.
Carrie Fox:
Absolutely. I'm going to introduce folks and then I'm going to turn it over to you. First, let me introduce Eboo Patel, named one of America's Best Leaders by U.S. News and World Report. Eboo is the founder and president of Interfaith America, which works with governments, universities, private companies, and civic organizations to make faith a bridge of cooperation rather than a barrier of division. Eboo served on President Obama's inaugural Faith Council and has authored five books including one that I am loving right now, We Need to Build: Field Notes for Diverse Democracy. It's a book we'll be referencing and we will link to in today's conversation. So thrilled to have Eboo and he'll be on the screen in just a moment.
We also have someone who was mentioned earlier in some of our conversations, and that is Iara Peng, a serial entrepreneur who has never been afraid to ask, what if? As she works to achieve her vision of a more just, equitable, and reflective democracy. Iara is the founder and CEO of JustFund, the nation's first Common Application grant-making platform that has moved over $320 million to historically excluded and chronically underfunded communities. I can't help but smile because I feel some pride when I hear that. I'm so incredibly proud of what they have built and how quickly actually it's catching on. Iara is also founder of Young People For, a leadership development program and the nonprofit media organization, Prism. She's on the board of Donors of Color Network, East Bay Community Foundation and Democratizing Philanthropy Project. We had Iara on the podcast back in 2020, and so we are thrilled to have her back here.
Welcome Eboo and Iara. For those in the audience who don't know about your work, I've given the overview, I've given them bio, but I'd love you to each give a little bit more background about the organizations you founded and why you founded them. So let me go to Iara first.
Iara Peng:
Well, hey Carrie. Hey, Stacy. I'm so happy to be here today and excited to talk about JustFund, which is a tech nonprofit, my first tech nonprofit that I started back in 2017, really under this fundamental belief that if we collectively change the way we give, our communities will thrive. Pretty simple, but very complicated when it comes to addressing the multiple systemic bottlenecks and barriers that exist in the conventional way that we give today that really prevents resources from flowing to communities that need those resources the most.
As you mentioned, Carrie, JustFund is the nation's first and only common grant application platform. We're focused on moving money to organizations that are advancing social and racial justice, and like you said, we've not only moved 320 million to organizations, but we've also saved those organizations 48 years of time. And we're building new technologies in addition to the Common Application that really focus on allowing funders to align their grant making practices with their core values and that democratizes access to funding for nonprofits around the country.
Eboo Patel:
I'll talk about what we talk about at Interfaith America as the five pillars of pluralism. Number one, diversity is [inaudible 00:05:28]. Number two, cooperation is better than division. Number three, identity is a source of pride. Number four, faith is a bridge. And number five, everybody is a contributor. [inaudible 00:05:38] the nation needed an organization that was focused on pluralism and those five steps as a priority. And so we built an organization that really focuses on how higher education can model pluralism by lifting those five things up, how companies could model it, and how civic like the YMCA, Habitat for Humanity, Catholic Charities and the like could model that kind of pluralism. Our hope is that by telling a story of pluralism that really encapsulates those five pillars and helping a set of sectors model it and lifting up a set of leaders that can enact it in their lives, we make it a social norm across the nation.
Carrie Fox:
So you two are what I like to call courageous builders, and I'm excited to learn more from you. So I'll go on mute and Stacy, go ahead and take over.
Stacy Palmer:
Iara and Eboo, I'm thrilled to be with you in conversation and as Carrie said, we invited you here because both of you are builders and we were inspired by a quote from Eboo who likes to say that it's really important that if you're going to defeat the things that you don't like, you need to build the things that we do want to see.
Iara, you're such a great example of that. I wonder if you can talk a little bit more than you did in the intro about what was the problem you wanted to defeat and how is the work that you've built translating into resources for nonprofits? I'd love to hear some examples of what's been happening.
Iara Peng:
I think the philanthropic system, like most other systems, has systemic racism just built into its DNA, and that's really hard to fully unravel. When we collectively are moving $472 billion a year in philanthropic capital and 4% of those dollars go to communities of color, you know that there are structural barriers that need to be eliminated or defeated, as Eboo says. We need to eliminate those structural barriers so that the communities that need those resources can equitably access them.
Two of the biggest barriers that keep communities from equitably accessing resources are the exclusionary nature of philanthropy and the expensive nature of philanthropy. What I mean by that is we fund who we know. That's natural, but it also excludes a whole swath of nonprofits around the country. And it can take, in terms of the expensive nature, it can take $5,000 and 40 hours of an organization's time to apply for a grant they're going to get 30% at the time. So that system that we have automatically puts communities of color and other marginalized communities at a disadvantage. Why?
Well, we know for example, that Black-led organizations, Black-led nonprofits are 91% smaller than their white-led counterparts. So do smaller nonprofits have the capacity to access relationships with foundation leaders, funders, donor networks, and do they have the capacity to search for and navigate what can be complex application processes? Well, typically the answer is no. We have organizations that have a part-time ED, they don't have a development director and certainly not a grant writer, right? So we need a new system if we really want to solve the most pressing issues facing our country today. Because I believe if we truly want to solve the most pressing issues facing our nation today, we have to fund people who are closest to those issues. We have to fund people and communities that are directly impacted by those issues because they are closest to the solutions.
To me, what we've built here at JustFund isn't just about equity. It's about wanting to win and getting strategic about where we put our resources as a philanthropic ecosystem. I think to make this change, it's going to require philanthropic leaders and institutions to really look at their systems and make some different decisions. The exciting part to me, Stacy, is that they are. On JustFund alone, we have over 180 collaborative funds, national foundations, corporate foundations, community foundations. I'm talking about funders like Decolonizing Wealth, Omidyar Network, Democracy Fund, JPB Foundation, Silicon Valley Community Foundation, Newman's Own Foundation, a lot of funders taking action to align their grant-making practices with their core values that generally are trust, transparency, accountability, and certainly equity. They want to make sure that their commitment to centering equity in their giving is actually modeled and prioritized in the systems that they set up.
What I love about the funders that we're interacting with on JustFund is that they value the experience of their applicants. They really want to make it easier for their applicants to access funding. They want to be more transparent in their decisions. They're expressing a desire to want to work with other funders and build deeper trust in relationships with leaders on the front lines. As a result, they're leaning into JustFund as a way to help them do that. They're also actively helping us to build what I think is really exciting new technology that allows them to really bring to life that commitment of trust and equity. The result is, as we mentioned before, saving organizations a collective 48 years of time, moving 320 million in such a short period of time.
What I love about what's happening also on JustFund is that 320 million is just the tip of the iceberg. But in that 320 million, what we're seeing is 57% of the grants moving on JustFund are secondary grants. This is what happens when you build an equitable technology. Our Common App solution allows groups access for free in perpetuity on JustFund. So they can use their profile once they've set it up to apply to one fund, to apply to any other fund on JustFund. And you can see as an example, one of the groups that I was looking at today was Black Voters Matter. They've raised nearly a million dollars from funders using JustFund. They've received 23 grants. We've saved that organization alone a month of time at least in just applying for grants. And we've helped them find new sources of income from foundations, from individual donors just by using that Common App.
You can see funds across the country, like even Press Forward, which is a pretty massive $500 million fund, who chose to run their initial grant cycle, their initial open call on the JustFund platform to bring in 900 profiles, 900 applicants into JustFund all focused on local journalism. What a decision like that does is really significant because all of those groups that applied to Press Forward now have a chance to apply to any other fund and for individual donors, philanthropic advisors and program officers to find them in the JustFund database. So anyone looking to fund democracy and of course local journalism, JustFund can now lift up all of these profiles and suggest those groups as prospective grantees.
So we can help funders whether they're running one cycle or dozens of grant cycles a year. And ultimately, my hope is that we're just making it easier for funders who want to center equity in their giving, who want to choose equitable solutions to actually have a way to do that. I believe ultimately that decision that different leaders are making in different institutions is going to help nonprofits to access more resources. I also think with this rise in new ways of thinking, the future of philanthropy around colonizing wealth, reparative philanthropy, trust-based philanthropy, there's just a bigger appetite that we're seeing among all types of funders, including high net wealth donors themselves to change the way they give. I think as we do that, we'll see more communities that have been historically excluded start to get more access.
Stacy Palmer:
That's great. I want to come back and talk about the individual donors because that's a really important part of your work.
Eboo, when you first started seeking grants, you are the kind of person with an idea for an organization that Iara is now helping. You now have hindsight from all of that experience. What were some of the important lessons you learned from some of your early funders that even today are affecting and shaping your organization and your approach?
Eboo Patel:
Let me just say, I'm so compelled by what Iara just said. There's lots of people who talk about systemic level challenges and not as many who create systemic level solutions and the Common App is an example of that. Hats off to you Iara and that innovation. I think it's really powerful.
So I think in some ways I walk a parallel path to some of the same goals. And so I was initiated into kind of angry activism when I was in college, fist in the air kind of stuff, calling other people out kind of stuff. I took that energy into the space of religious diversity and interfaith work when I started getting involved in that. In 1998, I was at this very boring interfaith conference at Stanford University and I stood up in the middle of the conference and I put my fist in the air and I pointed a finger and I said, "You people are boring. This is bull. Where are the young people? Where's the edge? Where's the social action? Where's the kind of sense of energy?"
My call-out got the desired result. There were kind of some mouths agape and there were some oohs and ahs, and then people kind of petered off to the next session. But this woman comes up to me and she says, "That's a really interesting idea, a diversity organization, an interfaith organization that would center young people and that would be focused on social action. You should build that, you should build that." That was a kind of profound and scary moment for me because honestly, my self-righteousness was a bluff. So maybe your self-righteousness is not a bluff, but mine was a bluff. I was pretending like I was an expert and I'm not. And I was pretending like I had done it a million times and I hadn't. And she was calling me on it in a really inspiring and inviting way.
She was basically like, "Hey, if that's what you care about, why are you telling other people to do it? You should do it. You should build that." And it kind of occurred to me, you know what? I do care about this enough to build it. And that was 1998 and 26, 27 years later, I am still building it. And part of the funding journey for me, I'll tell you kind of two parts of this. One was as I started putting together with a group of terrific people, some of whom are still involved, which is quite special, the first project of what was then called Interfaith Youth Corps and is now a much more sophisticated $20 million, 70-person organization called Interfaith America. But back then it was a group of four or five grad students who were like, we should get young people from different religions together to do social action projects and reflect upon that social action through their religious tradition and build bridges that way.
Once we got a couple of projects under my belt, I started going to funders. And look, I grew up, I'm an immigrant from India, I grew up professional middle class, certainly stable and comfortable materially, but I didn't see the New Yorker magazine until I got to grad school. Let me put it that way, right? Nothing sophisticated about my growing up. I went to the University of Illinois, quintessential, professional, middle class university, but I went to grad school in a fancy place. I went to Oxford. And so I kind of find out about this world of the Ford Foundation and MacArthur and the Chicago Community Trust. The kind of places that Iara is suggesting is just off the radar screen for most normal people. But I find out about them and I get meetings through kind of my network, which I hustled to build with these program officers. And they listened politely because I'd had a referral. They were like, "Well, here's why we can't fund you. Interesting what you're doing, but you're not ready yet."
And I was so mad and I had read all of this kind of post-colonial critical theory and I found all of it coming out of my mouth. These people are imperialists and they're white supremacists and they're colonialists. What's really interesting is this is back in the early 2000s. My mentors, faculty members who had taught me critical theory, when I would tell this to them, like you know, "I went to the MacArthur Foundation and they were post-colonial and the way they were colonialists and the way they talked to me, blah, blah, blah." My mentors were like, "Uh, no, don't do that. Your organization's not ready. Somebody gave you feedback, take the feedback. They told you how to improve, improve. Don't find ways to call out people who are trying to help you get better." And that was some of the best advice I got.
And I have to say, I wrote this in a piece in the Chronicle of Philanthropy, which not a lot of people liked. I was like, "If I was coming up in this era, I would've a critique of philanthropy, but I wouldn't have built an organization because lots of people would've applauded my calling philanthropy colonial. But not a lot of people would've said to me, why don't you get better? Why don't you improve your projects? Why don't you improve your evaluation? Those people are giving you good advice." And I did that. I got better. The organization I was building improved. And I went back for a second round of grants and we got three grants in that second round. This is 2002. Two of them were from Black men and one was from a Muslim woman.
I don't think that that is accidental. I think that as Iara's suggesting with the JustFund, there's something of like, "Hey, we're going to give this person a chance. The organization is not quite ready, but he's doing something important and he's hungry and we're going to take a risk." And to a person, they said to me, "I went to the wall for you. Do not make a fool of me." I appreciate that so much. And I have to tell you something, I don't say that to people now, but I wish I could. I wish I could say, "I am taking a risk on you. Here's the standard you have to meet the standard."
Excellence is excellence and part of the way that we are changing systems at Interfaith America is by excelling as an organization. We're the organization that did the largest survey in higher ed ever done on religious diversity. We are roughly 10x the size of the next largest organization in our field. The reason for that is because we are just hungry for excellence. And so I think there's multiple ways to change systems. One is the way Iara is doing it through a Common App. Hats off to that. And part of the way we're doing it is like we're never going to make excuses. I am never going to tell you the reason that I can't be excellent. I am never going to let my staff do that.
Stacy Palmer:
Really good advice for all of the people who are listening. And I'm curious, hearing Eboo's story especially, Iara, you started working with foundations, but now you said wealthy donors are also getting interested in this, and honestly that's where a lot of the money is. And also that's where it's even harder to access because people don't know who they are. Can you talk a little bit more about how you're doing that and what you see as the growing appetite among affluent donors to work with you?
Iara Peng:
Yeah, I mean, I think we've just scratched the surface of what's possible here at JustFund. Like any good product, we started with one market, like you said, with foundations and actually moved in. We actually started with collaborative funds with Solidaire Network, with Emergent Fund and with Defending the Dream Fund. So these collaborative funds are very interesting because they are intermediaries. They're raising money and moving money. And soon after foundations started to join us, like JPB Foundation and others who wanted to do rebranding. Kresge was an early one as well where they wanted to move money in and then help us move money out to smaller organizations. It's really powerful with foundations, I'll just say, because oftentimes foundations have bylaws that prevent them from funding smaller organizations.
For example, one foundation might say in their bylaws, "We can only fund up to 20% of an organization's budget." But their smallest grant size is 250,000. So they're not able to actually move money to smaller organizations. By the way, we know that Black-led organizations are 91% smaller than their white-led counterparts. The majority of groups on JustFund are under half a million dollars, and the majority of those are under half of that. So we have to figure out systems and ways to work with different types of funders, collaborative funders being the primary user client partner here on JustFund, and then foundations following closely behind, and then community foundations, which also provide a huge opportunity to work with, as you're saying, Stacy, high net wealth donors who have donor-advised funds inside those institutions.
For folks who don't know what a donor-advised fund is, it's basically like a charitable giving account, and there's right now 234 billion parked in donor-advised funds not moving out. So a donor can get an immediate tax deduction and a foundation too by just moving that money into a DAF and it never then has to move again. That's a challenge. And so what we know about high net wealth donors and donors in particular is that we'll move... Most of our money is already committed to our alma mater or to our church or our religious institution, but then there's the smaller percentage of dollars that we don't know what to do with. And the way we're going to move that money, generally speaking is if there's a crisis or if a friend tells us to, if someone else tells us to move that money. So we're actually modeling in our product. How do we do that? How do we help high net wealth donors move money knowing that they're going to move money if there's a crisis situation or a friend tells them to? What's the connective tissue kind of technology we can build?
Stacy Palmer:
And I think what you said that's important too, is you can still give to your alma mater and do those things. There's a movement of both grant, right? You can do that and you can do other things, but people need to be exposed to that. So I think that's really important work.
I would really like to talk to you about, Eboo, is the work that you've been doing with other nonprofits to advance democracy, to fight polarization. I think you see that as something that all nonprofits have a responsibility to no matter what your cause is. And you've worked with some really big organizations to be able to advance that idea. Could you talk more about what you're doing and why you think all of us need to play a part in this work?
Eboo Patel:
Yes. Thank you, Stacy. So we have a major initiative called The Team Up Initiative that's a partnership with Catholic Charities, the YMCA and Habitat for Humanity. The big idea here is that in the most religiously diverse nation in human history, which is the United States and the world's first attempt at diverse democracy, where people from the four corners of the Earth playing in different ways, speaking different languages, with all of its complicated and brutal history, the United States is still the world's first attempt at diverse democracy. How do we make sure that people are engaging one another in a way that's characterized by respect, relationships and cooperation rather than demeaning one another, demonizing one another, dividing each other? How do we have what in the intellectual tradition in American life is called pluralism? I'm reminded that the first symbol for SNCC founded by of course John Lewis and Diane Nash, and that group of American heroes was two hands clasped together, a white hand and a black hand.
The white hand wasn't always cooperating, but there was this sense of like, I am going to insist, I'm going to will. I believe that it is part of the arc of the moral universe that we will cooperate with each other. I'll tell you something, there is a reason diverse democracies were not created before 1789. That's because people thought they were impossible. Literally for centuries, people believed that they could not live with people of other identities, that they were constantly going to be at each other's throats. In the United States, part of what it means to refound the nation over and over and over again is to insist on the notion that people of diverse identities and divergent ideologies can cooperate with each other. A lot of times people roll their eyes at me and they're like, yeah, but don't you know that everything is political? I'm like, "Yeah."
The next time your house is on fire and you call the fire department, do you want them to ask who you voted for? But when your uncle has a heart attack and the paramedics show up, do you want them to ask who you voted for? Aren't a whole lot of things civic? Is it when you take your child to a piano lesson, the focus is on the civic activity of the piano lesson? Do you really want preschool teachers coming apart over their views on abortion or immigration or the Middle East War? There's a huge part of America in which we recognize that we are going to disagree on some fundamental things and work together on other fundamental things. That's called pluralism. And the smartest minds in America have from James Madison to Jane Addams to Daniel Allen have put their minds to that question. How do you have a nation where people can disagree on some fundamental things and work together on others?
We believe our part in that is to help higher education model it. Of course, it's been a very challenging couple of years for helping companies model it and helping civic organizations model it. And I'll say another critique of me is the oppressed shouldn't have to be civil to the oppressor. We live in a world of 8 billion people. Over half the world lives in under $10 a day. 3.5 billion people do not have proper nutrition. 1.5 billion people live with parasitic worms. What category are you in? If you think that you are in a category that allows you to be uncivil to other people, 8 billion people in the world, who can be uncivil to you?
Stacy Palmer:
Such important questions. And I know we could go on all day and we don't have all day. So I want to close out by asking both of you, there are people in this audience who have control over resources and important organizations, and you both are really risk-takers. And can you talk a little bit what would be the one thing that you would encourage people to have the courage to take a risk or two, look at the long term and really focus on it? Because that's what philanthropy at its core has that luxury of doing it in a way that business or government probably don't.
Iara Peng:
Oh, I love that so much. Thanks so much for the question. We have to be comfortable funding innovation. I would say the biggest shift we need to make, which to me isn't necessarily risky, it's really strategic, but it can be seen as risk is let organizations and the nonprofits you partner with, your partners lean into failure. The faster we fail, the faster we get to winning solutions. And we're so afraid of failure with this benchmark culture and performance indicators and our five-year strategic plans that we're afraid to let go of where we said we wanted to be. Even though we see all these signals and indicators telling us we should probably pivot, we just need to hit that goal, hit that benchmark, let's fail fast, fail forward. I think that's one of the smartest things we can do in philanthropy.
And like you said, Stacy, and like Robert Reich talks about, philanthropy is society's risk capital. It doesn't look for a financial return. We can keep on testing and trying and getting to winning solutions without having to get there right away in that initial structure that we laid out five years ago, let's be innovative, let's be creative and let's solve systemic problems.
Stacy Palmer:
I'm really glad you made that point. People think failure is a bad thing, and it's not like most people are embezzling or doing all those awful things. They're just trying an idea that it turned out didn't work. It's a new one. That's what philanthropy should be about even. Eboo, what's your thought on that?
Eboo Patel:
Here's one, totally wild. If every year football players basically have to excel to be on the team, why don't we ask the same of people in civil society? We do the most important work in our society, why don't we set a standard of excellence that's like the equivalent of what the Chicago Symphony Orchestra sets or what the Alabama Crimson Tide sets? Everybody here is excellent. They are world-class because the kids we tutor, the unhoused people that we help, the hurricanes that we clean up after, it requires that. There's nothing but excellence here. Nothing but excellence. So that's one. Just believe in excellence.
Two is fund cooperation across difference. Be proud of it. The number of places that, "Oh, like wow, I'm going to whisper to you that we really try to... " No. Do you really think that in the most diverse nation in human history, we are going to hold together without taking pride and cooperating across difference? Heart surgeons from different ideologies, firefighters from different ideologies, say it loud and proud. We fund cooperation across difference and diversity is not just the differences you like.
Stacy Palmer:
Thank you. That's wonderful advice. Carrie, I think it's time for you to return.
Carrie Fox:
It is unfortunately. So folks are really enjoying this conversation. So what I would invite the audience to do is write down two things and go follow up. First, Eboo is a columnist at The Chronicle and his work is fantastic. I think we're going to be putting a couple links into the chat, but I would also invite you to go over subscribe to The Chronicle so that you can get access to his new articles as they come out.
The other thing I would suggest is check out justfund.us. Iara's work is incredible and more funders should be considering how they move toward the process that Iara has really set up for you. So take advantage of the wonderful innovations that have been represented on this call today.
That brings us to the end of another episode of Mission Forward. If you like what you heard today, I hope you'll stop right now and give this show a five-star rating wherever you are listening to this podcast. Maybe even forward it to a friend who you think would enjoy today's conversation. And of course, check out the show notes for all of the links referenced in today's show.
Mission Forward is produced with the support and wisdom of Pete Wright and the TruStory production team, as well as the wonderful Sadie Lockhart of Mission Partners. You can learn more about our work over at missionforward.us and of course, reach out to me anytime at carrie@mission.partners. Thanks for tuning in today, friend, and I'll see you next time.
